Ketsui
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Thanks for the reply, Tim.
I appreciate your further insights and information on this topic. I wasn't aware that there are some hand guided steps even if a final pass with a rotary tool isn't performed, that's helpful to know. Definitely, I think it can't be disputed that there's plenty that's automated in the process of creating the anglage of Cal. 1315. I also recognize that you've mentioned that you're open to the final pass being done with a handheld rotary tool in some reviews. Recently though when discussing the Fifty Fathoms and Cal. 1315, your wording on the matter has been pretty definitive that the entire process is mechanically applied, that or the possibility of a hand guided final pass isn't mentioned. Those cases are what led me to research and create this post.
Cal. 1863 from Omega makes me curious too. If the Swatch Group has developed machinery to mimic hand guided bevels perfectly, not anytime recently either, over 20 years ago, why hasn't anyone else in the entire industry come close?
Blancpain finishes the 1315's bevels by hand. Here's why.
One thing that stands out to me about Blancpain is their dedication to movement decoration and finishing. It’s not just about what you can see, but also what’s hidden underneath the bridges. In their price class against direct competitors, I believe they’...
I have absolutely no expertise in identifying how a movement is polished and or finished.
What I do have experience in is that I own two models that have the movement 1315 and the only thing I can say is that they are outstanding time pieces with accuracy in the plus 1/ -1/sec per day
I wonder why you choose WPS to post this article rather than sending it right to Tim Mosso?
Is there a battle going on that we need to be a part of? Thank you Cazalea
There is no battle.
Tim is a member of this forum, and he's made comments as to the 1315's finishing on this forum. Because of this, I thought this would be the platform to post my findings. If this post is taken with aggression, or as a challenge, that is absolutely not the...
Long and deep reasoning, however as per the classical term of “hand beveling”, the use of a rotary tool is machine finish!
Hand beveling is done manually, with the use of Gentian polishing wood, a la Dufour, just to name one. Nevertheless more than enough for my requirements…
This is true.
A rotary tool is a modern way of facilitating the process of anglage, it's certainly not what Philippe Dufour, Rexhep Rexhepi, Romain Gauthier, and other independent watchmakers employ. To clarify for the community, by hand in this instance refers more to...
Wow, thanks for all the research! I very much believe the same from the simple fact that the finishing is so inconsistent it must be done by hand 🤣
Just from my own FF I could see enough inconsistencies in how corners/angles are executed that I figured it had to be done by hand. It's a little all over the place and the rotary tools must be pretty aggressive but I still prefer the imperfect work done ...
For sure.
If we pooled together all of our examples of the 1315 and related calibers, we'd likely spot plenty of little differences in the finishing between them. It's endearing in a way though, showing a bit of the human touch.
Does anyone make a precision robot that can polish? If not, let's create one and license it out.
Could precision laser be used too? Perhaps a combo or additive, laser, and polish to create 'humanly impossible' multi-angles?
I have heard of such a device.
But I do not know who makes them. I have heard that Omega has used it, like on their Moowatch calibres that have the sort of mirrored anglage. I still don't really know much else about it. Might be worth looking into!
There are already many ways
5 axis CNC can achieve sub micron precision. Femtolaser ablation can almost reach the same precision without heating and melting. LIGA/electro-forming is another method for creating complex geometries like spirals and gears. There's a universe of technolo...
Wow, mega thread here.
Thanks for putting this up and for putting the work in. It's very convincing. I think that we're in good standing—as you say, we can be proud of our watches. However, the intricacies of the finishing process with the microscopes and binders are really fas...
It's not fair to complain that the brands are inconsistent when we're not consistently using the same photographer...
A lot of the data in this article I can agree with, and a lot I don't agree with. And perhaps more importantly, a watchmaker would probably agree with some aspects of the text and disagree with some aspects of the text. Furthermore, almost all the high en...
I could've probably used photos exclusively from SJX and still furthered most of my points, especially had I dug through even more of his reviews than I already have.
My definition of "by hand" in this case is mentioned in what I initially wrote, and in my comment to ZSHSZ, the use of handheld rotary tools by craftspeople to polish the anglage after machining. This "by hand" isn't utilized across the board with high en...
Totally agree with this.
Lack of fine finish is evident on a lot of AP pieces as you say, especially on examples of the 3120 that I've come across. JLC is another super obivous contender for this category—their bevels more closely resemble Nomos' more than anything, since they ar...
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I'd rather not go into the details here. But I'll answer your question partially... Also, I am not trying to be critical here of our poster, this poster has made an amazing first post on our forum and I am absolutely thrilled to have Ketsui with us! Thril...
Thank you for the welcome, Patrick.
I appreciate it. This was a complex post to put together, and is a complex topic in general like you mentioned. It took me some time to compile in a way where I was happy with the end result. To further clarify for the community, in my first paragraph for...
You're most welcome.
I know it's a lot to type out. AND imagine when the website crashes or an error happens! Yikes! Sometimes you lose all your work! Thanks again for your contribution! And thanks again for being a member here!
The JLC finishing is a little sad.
The JLC finishing is indeed very sad. Just a flat beveled edge but completely matte and unpolished. Human "error" implied it was a quality issue. But I see where you're coming from now. Thanks for explaining.
The 1315 movements are no longer made/finished in Le Sentier, production has moved to the new CHH plant in Le Brassus
Part of Swatch’s ongoing efforts to smush the Breguet/Blancpain/Omega back-end together
Interesting.
If you have a source for this I'd love to see it, because I haven't stumbled across that yet.
I don't think it's public info
There is an exploded view of the 1315 on the CHH website , if that adds credibility to what I'm saying.
Regardless of how it’s done, they look very well finished to me
For the 6k or so a used bathyscaphe goes for, they are very well finished in my opinion.
Side note
It’s kind of weird to make a new account on a forum and keep referencing one member 😂 I know you’re not trying to be mean or something, but it’s still a weird post to make. The hentai avatar doesn’t help lol
"hentai avatar" is crazy 😭
I'm pretty sure it's Rei from Neon Genesis Evangelion Limited Edition G-Shocks--there is also a TV show or something too
Super contestable.
I think it's context-sensitive; otherwise fan art of Space Marines in the Warhammer universe would mean someone's horny just as well as highly suggestive art. There's a marked difference. ...
Haha I was kidding
But ironically the first image I generated with Midjourney was warhammer stuff 😂
My avatar isn't fan art, nor hentai as you claim.
This is an official work made by Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, the character designer and founding member of the studio Gainax, which produced the TV animation Neon Genesis Evangelion in 1995. I like what I like outside of watches. Does that mean I can't express th...
Good job.
Thanks for showing everyone here your true nature lol, god forbid people are into things that you aren't.
To Be Clear About This
99% of beveling that looks rounded and mirrored starts with a machine cut. This is true of Patek, Blancpain - almost all of them. I've been in these factories and at low volume - think F.P. Journe or Moser - the first pass is done by a person holding the ...
Thanks for the reply, Tim.
I appreciate your further insights and information on this topic. I wasn't aware that there are some hand guided steps even if a final pass with a rotary tool isn't performed, that's helpful to know. Definitely, I think it can't be disputed that there's p...
We had an actual response from Blancpain recently.
I believe the post was here, in fact, and a member reached out to Blancpain about the 1315. Blancpain's response clarified that the 1315 isn't considered part of its artisanal horology series and relies partly or entirely on automation. Best, Tim
I'm not finding that here...
In searching with multiple keyword combinations (even as basic as "1315"), I'm not finding that post, neither in WPS's search nor Google using quotes around the keywords for direct results. If you have a link to that handy, or some more info regarding the...
Neither have I.
I've reached out to BP directly to no avail. I'm surprised they nominally got back to someone about this.
Since the original post is partly about me, I thought I'd share this email from a client who reached out to Blancpain directly on this matter
I've removed his name, but you can see that he validated my shift towards describing the caliber 1315 as a mechanically finished movement. My continued suspicion is that the 1315 and old Moonwatch sapphire sandwich caliber 1863 - which featured some glori...
Tim, thanks for sharing this email with us. This ultimately raises more questions in my eyes.
It sounds like Blancpain's definition of hand finishing when it comes to anglage is what's practiced in the Le Brassus farmhouse, utilizing metal files and Gentian wood, time honored hand laid bevels. It also appears that this is only practiced on "high c...
Wow, interesting
Regardless of how they get there, the result is nice for a watch that goes for less than a used sub on secondary.
Interesting and confusing 😂 Totally makes sense that swatch would seek to automate this process. However, I'm surprised then that Omega didn't continue forward with that same level of finishing on the new 3861.
Given the substantial price hike, it seems like any additional cost would have been more than covered. That said, I believe Swatch has also figured out how to automate the sharp internal angles and polishing on wheels and there have been back and forth di...
Regardless of the exactitude of the 1315 movement finishing,this thread is reason I come to WPS!
Horology is truly a subtle sport involving detail and process. But I think what we really mean by "hand finishing" is "Swiss elves with wooden sticks". This discussion has really opened the spectrum of OCD...ahem...price category...ahem...polish. Now I wa...
