Horological Meandering

Dear All,

Would there be a market for the same watch with different levels of movement finishing? Would you be willing to pay more for this, or even specify hand versus machine finishing - we can currently do that for strap stitching.

We already see a form of this in different case metal options, with many companies offering the same piece in steel or precious metals.

And I guess JLC have done this to some extent with different finishing on similar (anniversary) Reverso movements. Are there other examples?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Andrew
There's no place like HoMe!

...there are a variety of folks who offer movement engraving for a fee -- the Habrings come to mind here with their "Carinthian" engraving options.

PSM added engraving of the automatic winder base plate on my Shimoda as a no-charge option when I bought that (now lamentably departed) watch.

Of course, if you pony up for a watch from some Independents (Kari as a prime example) you immediately enter into an enjoyable consultation on multiple aspects of watch design, which can include things like striping vs. frosting for plates and striping vs. black polish for the balance cock, for instance.  That's all part of the (often hefty) price of the experience -- but here we are talking about paying a premium for tailoring, not the idea of good-better-best options for finishing quality.

An intriguing thread, as always with you, Andrew!

Best,

Gary G

... with choices of finishing types. But usually in limited numbers.

I wonder if there is a market at the other end? Art’s Omega Seamaster and Speedmaster example is a good one. Although the watchmakers don’t offer this in isolation: you get a solid back or an exhibition back with a more decorated and attractive movement.

Thanks for your comments.

Andrew

RGM offer different movement finishes in decoration, skeletonisation etc on their traditional range which use old Hamilton pocketwatch movements. TOURBY do the same using the Unitas movements. BENZINGER as well. There are others but i cant think of them off the top of my head. A lot of them also offer COSC as a small cost option.
I cant see large brands doing it as you need to be a small setup to be able to offer that type of flexibility, but heres hoping.

G

I would pay for premium finishing.  However, I think it dilutes a brand to have different levels of a watch on its regular menu.  

... when Union Glashütte produced watches with more or less the same movements as Glashütte Original (Union cal. 26 and GO cal. 39), but Union's movements were machine finished, and lacked the swan-neck regulation, compared to the hand finish (except the rotor stripes) on the GO movements.

The Union watches were practically a bargain, and yet they did not sell very well. Only since Union uses Swiss ETA movements (and lowered their prices accordingly), the sales are said to be satisfactory.

It appears that even with the logistic assistance of a "big brother", you cannot offer good inhouse movements at a price lower than Xmin. The majority of buyers able to pay Xmin will then readily pay > Xmin to get the "real thing", and for the others, even Xmin is too expensive.

If ones takes into account the cost created by the need to have two different manufacturing lines (machine and hand finish), which artificially raises the cost for both, I do not think it makes sense to offer it.

Similar, but different still is Chopard's approach to offer a high-end line (LUC), and a completely different, machine-finished movement made in an own facility (cal. 01.01).

Regards,
Marcus

but it sounds like I am in the minority.

We all have in mind brands that provide different levels of finishing in there colection (whether for the material or for the engraving, chamfering, hedging quality etc ). JLC is a good example.

I think that these differences must be very clearly identified by the client.

Thus, if you have a same watch sold in different finishing gradings it will pull down the best quality watch's image, and hence the price the customer is willing to pay for it.

There is, to me, one exception: the material (gold, steel, Titanium, Pt). But the mouvement and quality of surfaces finishing must be the same, for a same watch.

Do you have something in mind ? ^^

Cheers,

Mark

There are those who refuse to buy watches that are made in precious metals (mainly gold and platinum) if the company offers the watch in steel (or titanium) as well. They feel the availability of the 'cheap' case lessens the value of the precious metal cased watches.

Of course that hasn't negatively affected the value of the occasional Patek or VC in steel. But that's probably a brand and rarity influence more than anything.

Andrew

I would accept it even if it also exists in steel.

But not the finishing working.

I'm in what is probably a miniscule minority:  I actively dislike obsessive finishing and consider it detracts from the basic questions - "Does it keep good time?  Is it reliable?  Can it be serviced easily? etc".  I only have one watch with a display back and I genuinely don't care what the movement looks like so long as it is as functionally perfect as possible.  I admire the skills needed to produce the finishing, I just don't like the finishing itself.

...get those basics right...then you can decorate to your heart's content.

I'm also in complete agreement concerning admiration for the skills involved in the astounding finishes we are fortunate to see, but it isn't something that particularly draws me to a watch.

I think a watch ,apart from the case material,should be offered with the same finishing ,all the time.

because it is what is the most time consumming and having different levels of finish would , as Mo says, cheapen the brand. And i wouldn't be ready to pay the premium for finish from a brand which also offers a low end finish, I would rather buy fronm a brand whose finish is consistly high lever on all products

NT

Which is EXACTLY what I think.

I will be direct and frank, here: A fine watch should be flawessly finished.

Finished... Anglages, perlages, cotes soleillées or Geneva, polished screws, and so on...

Or is this the apanage of Vintage watches?

I am more and more paying attention to that for my future watches.

Best,

Nicolas

This message has been edited by amanico on 2012-09-05 03:12:46

Hi Nico,

I understand and agree with your view. Interestingly it was JLC the Cal. 875 in my Reverso Grand Date and the Cal. 879 in your Reverso Septantieme that prompted this question. The finish on the anniversary edition is clearly superior, but of course the watch wrapped around it is different. So it is an unfair comparison. But I would be willing to pay more for the better finish because I love the architecture of that rectangular movement, particularly the bridges.

Andrew

I noticed this several years ago and it drove me bonkers.  At that time, I didn't want to pay the premium for the platinum limited edition watch to get the perfectly finished movement, and I liked the Grande Reverso GMT in steel for price and appearance.  It annoyed me that the premium limited edition model was more highly finished.  Ultimately, to Jaeger-LeCoultre's demise, I didn't really procure any of them...  

Even at the asked price, in 2001, I expected something better finished.

Not that it is not a very pleasant watch to see, but more anglages would have been much appreciated.

Don't get me wrong, I love it for what it is, but I can understand feelings like yours.

I was exactly in the same situation, till August 2007.

Best,

Nicolas.

Exactly true.  When I first saw the pieces, I was still wishing that they were finished to a slightly higher degree.  Honestly, if JLC did one small thing, I would've felt better.  On the Grande Reverso line, they bevel the edges of the plates, but they don't polish these bevelled edges.  If they just polished these edges, then that would make a world of difference and put them more on par with other brands.  Kind of like a "half job anglage" in a way.  

I had many discussions with them on this topîc...

Best.

Nicolas

The level of finish of the 70 eme is at a good quality or average for JLC standards  especially for its levels in 2001?

But related to its price, I would have expected better.

Keep in mind that in 2002, it was a bit more than... 40 000 Euros! And that now, the retail is above 65 K Euros.

I had to wait 7 years before " falling " on an opportunity I could not miss.

Best,

Nicolas

A real hefty beauty, you are right the price is steep but it s well worth hunting it. 

. . . with solid (cal 1861) and sapphire back (cal 1863) movements, which are differentiated not only by the substitution of a metal (cal 1863) for a Delrin (cal 1861) brake, but also by the application of Geneva waves (cal 1863).    

I'm a true lover of functional finish (the one that makes multiples parts to work better) and I don't pay too much attention to cosmetical (the finish that only tries to make the movement more "beautiful" - something that is always debatable ) finish.

For sure I will be willing to pay more for functional finish because I believe that this makes the movement work better and to last longer.

Cheers,

Nilo

offering different levels of finishing, and using price points to reflect that, IMHO, is a recipe for disaster. SWATCH group currently offers their raw ebauches with different level of finishing, but thats for "wholesale" market. doing so would also have bad response from customers with existing watches from the said brand. and undesired consequences could be consumers buy  just basic finished product, and treat the watches as status symbol, with brand name printed on dial for all to see. 

I've hesitated posting this, but here goes...