Horological Meandering

including that there must be a further back story here that is skimmed over by statement of 3 criteria for holding a brand forum.  Hopefully cooler heads will prevail, especially with so many eloquent comments of concern regarding this action.

As others have said it seems a slap in the face to all of us loyal PuristS that a forum we so frequently visit has been so abruptly removed.  Frankly I don't care what FPJ thinks of the forum or whether he supports it or not, or whether he offends some by his comments.  I enjoy the passion and exchance of information from fellow enthusiasts, and this is what draws me back so often--all of which seems independent of whatever tiff has ensued between FPJ and PuristS management. 

Also as others have alluded, think of the wealth of horological information that has vanished by an angry keystroke, with years of past posts deleted!

On a broader and concerning note, are we to understand that criteria #3 with mention of "sponsorship" means that the brands are paying for the privilege of a forum?  Far be it for me to question a business model, but that does add a new background light to my reading of any forum on this site if this interpretation is correct.

Above all thanks to Brad and the rest of the PuristS team for a wonderful forum that has contributed to my own horological knowledge and passion and purchases, though caused me many extra hours of eye strain over my computer at night........

And congrats to Brad on the new black label CS--that is a stunner.

And as criterion #3 shows, that tension manifests in questions of who controls the content on a forum, and more specifically, who has the right to censor or moderate posts. I can only infer that this is the key issue in FPJ's withdrawal of support for the forum. And it's unfortunate, both that Journe doesn't recognize the expertise here, and that the company can't maintain openness and honesty by engaging critical comments about their products.

DJK

innovative watchmakers of recent times.  There is more to online watch forums and I would argue PuristsPro is far from amateurish.  Indeed, I know several 'print' journalists who refer to on-line forums first, and then research other elements.  Print media journalists use the on-line sites to keep up with developments and discussions of what is important to collectors.

Can only hope that the decision is reversed.

Thanks to Felipe Jordao and Brad (the ladies man) Schwartz to their brilliant moderating of the forum. 

Just sad really

Andrew H

Having read through the thread, I find myself in complete agreement with the thought process that has very nicely been put on this page by Douglas just above.

I agree with the general sentiment expressed here about the loss of this forum but would be slow to attribute fault to anyone in particular.  PuristSPro has a scope within which it is comfortable and FPJ / Montres Journe SA also has a scope within which it is comfortable.  If there is an overlap then the parties can be happily affianced.  If not, then both can depart generally without any fault.  Each is entitled generally to engage on the terms each is comfortable, at least in most cultures that emphasise individual freedoms.  No one begrudges the seller that does not wish to sell at a price at which only the buyer is happy (some exceptions of course, like regulated access regimes for essential infrastructure).  So yes it is a shame that we have lost for time being what was a great forum in my view.  But no one ought feel ashamed of it.            

And of course a great thanks to Brad and the other moderators and everyone else for their contribution.

And sad to read about the shortsightedness of Mr. Journe's lack of support of the forum. 

But on a happier note: job well done to Brad who has given tremendous effort, hard work, and passion as moderator.   And congrats to Brad on his new watch!  Enjoy and good luck. 

Regards,
ED-209

bs22fly - thks fr your efforts, enjoyed all your posts and your advice one the centigraph, something i am still weighing.

hope to see FPJ forum restart someday.

 

to see this source of info on one of our times most inventive watchmakers cease to flow.
I hope it will not be long 'til the forum is reopened.
Don

accept the closure of this wonderful forum.

Without knowing the true and complete story, all I can say right now is a big "THANK YOU" to Brad for your great job as the moderator. I hope I can see you around in Hong Kong, better in Prince Building, SOON.

Zhiming

Whether there was a "straw that broke the camel's back", Journe has a very strong back - and the camel was designed by a committee.

As for negotiations that went on for months with a favorite Moderator here, what was there to negotiate about? Not likely that we, the common foot soldiers here, will ever know.

The PuristSPro have over recent years shown a tendency toward becoming a social club, often more interested in market or facial rather than in keenly discerned horological values - but that is the nature of the beast ... of this now defuct forum !

For whatever reason or reasons involved, we should accept if not respect Journe's slam-dunk decision - and not stop buying his watches for reasons of hurt feelings.

Journe is a strong-willed character. Without that, none of his watchs would ever have seen the light of day.

amerix This message has been edited by amerix on 2010-06-03 11:19:39 This message has been edited by amerix on 2010-06-03 11:22:59

I for one am going to ensure that my opinion is reflected by how I swing my pocketbook. 

You can bet for sure that I will not be spending any money with Journe from this point forward.  He obviously doesnt like "me" and "my friends" here on the purists. com  or puristspro or whatever we/they/you call it. 

Journe, the man, might be getting more pressure from his investors to turn bigger profits.  He might be taxed by increasing labor, raw material, other inflationary costs.  But, in my personal experienced with the man, his actions are really not becoming of a "pure" watchmaker.  Franck Muller got very full of himself at one point.  Now, I dont think Journe is going that same route....but when ones head grows too big.....

When the Montres Journe company starts taking this attitude of "fuck off" with their retailers....let's see who is still at the party. 

I dont need, want, care about having a boutique to sit and drink a coffee in, or read a book in - I dont have time for that.  I want to get my info, opinions, reviews from this site - time zone - others - I want to talk to my "friends" in a place where I can reference a post I made 4 years ago or review the same article Felipe wrote about the resonance or remontoir again and again. 

Journe has changed over the past 24 months and we as consumers have the ultimate say in how we view the man and firms actions. 

Brad - well, you are a jerk.  Stop buying his watches - at auction, at dealers, everywhere - forget what I said about the GS.  Find yourself a nice AP - or better yet a nice PP - I have met both Mr. Merk and Msr's Stern and dont think they will be taking the arrogant and pompous attitude of Journe. 

Dont buy Journe - he doesnt like you if you are reading this post.  He doesnt want us to talk about the problems we have with our watches - or the prices at auction - or the fact that he hasn't had a "hit" since the Dead Seconds. 

His products are late to market.  They have glitches and problems.  His retailers are getting upset since much of the product is being sold through the boutiques.  He will downsize his business - cut his retailers - make 300-500 watches instead of 750 to 1000 and will make more money at the lower volume becasue of his vertical integration.  There are 200 to 500 people a year who will buy his product. 

Honestly - I dont understand why Thomas/Anthony/Melvyn et al dont keep the forum open just for me to use to let my discontent out.  Instead, my comments are more "public" on the HOME forum where, I never post, read or visit.   These forums are not supported financially by the brands - at least not here, correct?  I know on "competing" forums, the brands "pay" for their presence.  (Please correct me if I'm wrong here or anywhere, Thanks)

And - FWIW - and he's a friend - but the other Journe Forum is moderated by a Journe reseller - really, that a true way to be unbiased . 

Total garbage -

Lastly - the new resonance is still ugly.  If anyone buys it - besides knowing inside you are a fool- if I ever meet you, I might just tell you what an ass you really are . 

We all know the truth - trends start and have begun here on the purists.com - Brands have started here on the purists.com.  Hell - frekin the world of independant watches wouldn't be here if it werent for TM, Ian, Curtis, Alex, Alberto, Felipe - Journe wouldn't be what he is without the ass-licking we all gave him on this forum -and site. 

Godspeed. 

asg

You know this is "normal" for me.  Although, the xanax on my desk looks mighty tasty.....

If you aren't a little bit pissed, well, I'll take it up with you on the 10th.

BTW - where is the repeater I have been waiting for? 

Oh - i wish i would have bought that Piaget Grande Sonnerie Journe did right about now.  I'd have so much fun with it! 

i think you are totally correct  buy  from who cares about its clients

A post on "the other Journe Forum" regarding the closure of the P*****S Journe Forum was completely deleted before I could blink. Isn't this situation of relevance to all individuals interested in horology in general, and Journe in particular?

A

Sorry I can't afford the Tourbillon

This is sad news indeed and as already mentioned by a few, it's impossible to really understand the decision without knowing the underlying details.  However as a Journe customer and a (relatively new) member of a community that is by its nature meant to express views, I will say this:

1. FPJ is not dependent on PPro for its core business and the closure of a forum (after any initial sting associated with being labeled "amateur") should not, to a large degree, affect anyone's decision whether to buy his watches or not - in my opinion.

2. I do think this takes something away from PuristsPro - as a venture, taking away this forum, that is dedicated to a brand so externally PuristS in nature will hurt the site.  I can only imagine that the site owner(s) are rational and so did not do this as an emotional decision.  However, I can't reconcile why the "sponsorship" of the brand is needed. The only rational explanation is that FPJ is able to wield some power to close such discussions through legal means but that seems unlikely to me.  The site of course could be run for passion rather than for commercial development in which case any decisions are personal and not wholly predictable.

3. As the broader rational response by the community is, in my opinion, to simply move the discussion to HoMe or perhaps back to the AHCI, the forum closure simply is a less organized way to discuss the brand which again implies something missing in the logic.

4. This event is neutral to my future purchases of FPJ timepieces.  I do recognize that we (and I include myself in this group) community members can be not only passionate but obsessive about our horological habits.  This is a bit extreme - (I am a bit nuts and I am comfortable in my skin) when compared to the mainstream FPJ (and similar) buyer bases in my opinion and not core (although helpful) to their business. 

So the whole thing (absent PPro management trying to squeeze FPJ) seems irrational - and believing in rational management, it means that only part of the story is understood.  Thus I remain confused.

p.s. If it is only down to a PPro management decision, and FPJ has no actual power to keep the forum from continuing, then I would hope that PPro management would consider a simple poll of the community as to whether such a forum is desired by the majority and then reinstate without sponsorship if that is the case.

All personal opinions based on imperfect information so apologies in advance for manifest errors of judgment!  All the best.

And a bit sad. I'm going to miss it.

After being a moderator on PPro now for a few months, I've come to understand the importance of mutual support between brand and forum.   Sure one can exist without the other, but it's when you have them both that true benefits can be reaped on both sides.  I am not talking only sponsorship support either, but idea support as well, of what it takes to make a forum truly engaging. 

I completely understand the spectrum of feelings being expressed here about the closing of the forum and how it just doesn't make sense.  Well for some, here is a conversation I often have with my 5 year old daughter that may shed some light...

P - "Did you play with your new friends today sweetie?"

N - "No Mama, they said I can't play with them."

P - "What?  Why did they say that?"

N - "I don't know.  They said I'm too little and I don't know anything."

P - "Well, that wasn't a very nice thing to say."

N - "Why did they say that Mama?"

P - "I don't know sweetie.  They just don't know that you're not too little and know a lot of things.  They just don't get it.  But that's okay. 

       You don't have to play with them.  You can always play with someone else that does want to play with you ok?" 

N - "Ok Mama."

 

you have to be around otherwise we will play else where

No message body

 

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2010-06-03 16:13:37

No message body

but why do you need to lock down the whole playground? Not even allowing eager hungry knowledge seekers to peek at the playground.

I just wish you close the forum for any new post, but let it open for us to still take a peek at all the knowledge there. For most participants, the decision to close the forum by not letting old posts survive, is like erasing all of their contributions in that forum with a single key stroke. I felt sad that all my silly posts and pictures on JD and HW (briefly) can't be accessed anymore.

My analogy is: this internet discussion site is not a bi-party relationship, but a tri-party relationship: the website, the manufacturers, and us. Thus, I kneel down and humbly request not to delete our participation.

But...... life goes on

cen@jkt

 

No message body

I believe you have the power to 'force' the GM of this site to read my post

Just kidding, don't ban me, don't kick me.

cen@jkt

There are reasons why when we close down a forum, that forum's contents remain inaccessible.  Your posts are not deleted, just temporarily inaccessible (just like what happened with Harry Winston forum).  I do not want to go into details of why we do this, but that is the way it is unfortunately.

- Anthony