Horological Meandering

Never in my right mind asking you to change the policy, but her forcing the management to read my post. And read you did .

Life goes on

cen@jkt

Your daughter is very lucky.

I came across this site about 2 years ago when I was bit by the bug.  Because of that forum I will one day (hopefully) own one of his watches, that is the plan at least.  I am sure there is more to it then what is on the surface with his quote.   I hope so at least, I cannot imagine he meant it like that and am not taking it like it was written.  Very very sad though, that was part of my morning ritual, still cannot believe it....  I am sure everyone knows how much we will miss that forum, I dont understand why it is gone and really hope it comes back.  Seriously of all forums that one is really gone?  Really disapointed.  The HO ME forum will be blowing up with FPJ posts I am sure, keep posting! 

No message body

Except these people ...

This message has been edited by cazalea on 2010-06-03 14:05:47

...but Journe looks a little sad too!

I thought this was one of the most informative forums of all. Thanks to the moderator(s) for the great work and I hope it gets reopened.

 

Andreas

Hopefully we can all continue our various interesting discussions like the one you started.

I don't know how it came to this and I hope miscommunication/misinterpretation was not involved. I hope fresh dialogue can continue and the forum will reopen soon. This would be to the benefit of all.

Thanks to Brad for his work even though I was not a participant (only a reader) of the FPJ forum.

Richard.

My web browser has one bookmark labeled "ThePuristS" with URL mob.watchprosite.com . Normally I come to visit here every day, and most of the days my first click after I get here is on the link to Journe forum. Today when I got here, I saw this thread on the top of the page, then I noticed the red "Closed" stamp on the Journe link. After reading through this thread, I learned what happened, but was still lost.

Just want to say Thanks to Felipe and Brad for moderating this wonderful forum. I miss it. Too bad it's closed, and even worse all the past posts are gone.

Thank you for all your hard work, Brad.  And thank you posters and readers for your many contributions.  I've enjoyed reading the FPJ forum immensely.  Peace.

I tend to visit the forum most days and on each of those days, the first 3 forums that I usually visited were Journe, Patek & Lange.

Today when I logged on, I thought that me eyes were deceiving me, did I really see in very small red writing the word "Closed" were the heck did that come from.I thought!

I would like to add my own piece, I don't pretend to understand the reasoning behind what has happened today, be it financial or political! But I have thoroughly enjoyed my regular visits to the Journe forum. In the 2-3 years that I have been on the forum I have learnt so much, not only about this manufacture, but about many others. But this was one of the three that I regularly visited.

HELL like many dozens of other members, I bought my first and only Journe based on the threads, posts that I read as well as the questions that I posed.

It is a sad,sad day indeed and although I shall continue to visit the forum often, it will not be the same. And dare I say that I will have to visit that other forum more often, to get any news and updates regarding this brand. That is of course unless that one also goes the same way??? 

It's a crying shame that all the previous posts and hard work of the members had to be sacrificed, can the management perhaps explain to us why this had to happen?

On a personal note. I would like to thank Brad, for ALL his hard work, both on screen and even more so off screen. And congratulations, on getting your Black Label CS............. It may well be the last one that we see for a while, because speaking for myself, I shall not go looking for the threads, which now will be doted all around the HoMe forum.

And to Mr Journe, if you do read this thread and you are anyway involved in what has occurred here today, then I hope you are ashamed of yourself, because it forums like this one and people like me who buy your beautiful creations.  And what has happened here today, may well have quite an impact on you in years to come.

 

I was told that the "purists asked for a lot of money to host [the forum]" and that the strength of the purists is our independence which is why they choose not to support us financially or otherwise in an effort to maintain our independence.

That sounds more Journe like to me....

So do all manufacturers pay to have forums here? I think we need more clarity from those who run this joint...

Did the PursitS management team demand money from Journe to run this forum?

First, I have to state that I am not part of the executive team, and have no insights in the process that led to the closure of the said forum. However, I feel a bit disconcerned to read posts with a rather aggressive tone, demanding clarification about any financial aspect. I am neither competent nor authorized to disclose the site's economic policy, but one thing should be clear to any of you: Running this site, offering the most comfortable software platform with free picture hosting, mailing service, everything specifically tailored to the needs of this community, keeping a staff of moderators constantly writing not only bs me-too acclamation posts, but substantial articles with in-depth research, letting them travel around the world to report from events and fairs, costs money. This is a straight and simple fact. You don't pay the bill, nor does any other reader. Thus it is only logic to ask those who profit most from what the site does, the manufacturers.

For the manufacturers, sites like ours are invaluable assets: public relations, market research, product testing, even essential assistance to the brand's own after sales service, since many questions are answered here, instead of forcing a service watchmaker to spend his time on the phone, rather than repairing a watch. For a half-page advertising in a magazine that is forgotten and thrown away after a few hours, brands spend thousands of Euros, Dollars, Franks, Yen and so on, but for a highly sustainable resource and support there is nothing but lame comments about "independence"? Unlike other online platforms similar to ours, we are not backed by a print magazine that collects advertising money from the brands and transfers part of the money to the online segement, nor are we owned by a big auction house. We have but ourselves, so the direct approach to the manufacturers is the only way to go for us.

Regarding independence: Yes, this is one of PuristSPro's key principles, and this will by no means be sacrificed to the commercial interests of a manufacturer, even if he decides to sponsor the site and/or "his" forum. This means he will have no influence on neither the tone nor the conclusions of our posts. I am moderator on this site since more than eight years now, and, believe me, I have had my fair share of manufacturer's efforts to influence my writing. But always I did hold my position, and the owners of the site always stood behind me, even if this CEO or brand owner was unhappy, and clearly phrased his unhappiness. However, in the long run, our principles paid off.

But there is some time when it is a matter of respect to at least seriously talk about a support these manufacturers could give the site, in return to the many years of persisting assistance. Denying even serious consideration and communication is a proof of disrespect not only towards the site and its owners and staff, but also to the readers and fans of the brand.

Enough said, I have to cool down a bit.

Regards,
Marcus
This message has been edited by Marcus Hanke on 2010-06-04 05:42:15 This message has been edited by Marcus Hanke on 2010-06-04 05:44:23

of which I think your second last paragraph is the most important. In fact, its the one that let me accept moderatorship here.

In these times, I guess firms are looking for instant gratification but tend to disregard long-term issues. Building a successful community, however, is such an endeavour, which does not work in case the goal is a cheerleader's society. Your list of issues clearly allude to that.

PuristsPro makes a strong statement in this regard. If any manufacturer decides that this is not what they want, its better for both sides if paths are separated. I myself prefer it that way.

Thus, I would like to express my support in you all here.

Best,
Magnus
 

and if do open up new forums, all the brands know that we have editorial independence and that they can't tell us what not to write or what to write.  That is absolutely crucial.

Editorial independence is what makes these forums great.  If you go to any of the brand's in-house forums, the atmosphere there is just not the same IMO.

- Anthony

here on PuristSPro.

MTF wrote at the top of the this thread, so let me expand even further:

1) Products that are of horlogical merit or attractive to PuristS, in order to get a worthy and passionate moderator.

The PuristS community needs to show some type of interest in the watches from that brand.  However, if the PPro exec team feels the community may like this brand and fulfills all 3 requirements, we will then open up the forum because we believe the brand will grow and prosper.  Perfect example was FP Journe.  Not many people knew about FPJ but look at what it's grown into.

2) Manufacturer, Watchmaker or Executive that are 'PuristS' in their heart; in the way they say AND do things to promote haute horlogerie and supply information.

To put the above simply, we must have a 2-way street.  The brand must support us with material, staff access, etc. to help the brand moderator generate content and keep the forum pumping along w/ material.  The brand must want to work with us and vice versa.  If the brand doesn't want a forum on PPro, then it doesn't make sense to have a forum on PPro even if they offer to sponsor the forum.  Why work with someone who really doesn't want to work with you?  Would you?  Money isn't everything...

3) "Sponsorship" that is not tied to editorial control or censorship.........

If the brand does not want to give PPro editorial independence, they are crossed off the list.  No exceptions - no editorial independence means no forum on PPro.

Sponsorship also equates to financial support because PPro has high monthly overhead to pay for the growing global moderator team and moderator pay stipend, travelling costs - airfare, hotels, meals, etc., software platform development, etc.  PPro is a commercial entity with legitimate overhead, so we definitely have to find a self-sustaining business model to keep this site running.  We have no backing from magazines or auction houses.  This is why financial support is one of the aspects in criteria #3.  Money doesn't grow on trees.  But let me stress that just because a brand sponsors a forum here on PPro, that doesn't mean everything posted by the mod team is controlled by the brand.  That has never been the way and will never be the way. 

So in summary, if the PPro exec team doesn't see all 3 above points met, in some form or fashion - then PPro will not open up a new brand forum or will close down an existing brand forum.

Best,
Anthony

 

 

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2010-06-04 07:28:43

There are lots of ways to raise funds. from members. from more advertising. I don't know all the details of this site's financial status but creating a forum, putting a good moderator there, and then threatening to shut it down unless Journe pays borders on extortion. Did you ask him to pay when the forum started?

And we do pay for the site. if we didnt visit, no manufacturer would advertise or sponsor. Maybe you should stop alienating the members of this forum by saying we are free loaders. without us you don't have a site. you make the site, we make it a forum that is worth visiting. That's why google doesnt tell its users to stop complaining because its free for them.

Secondly, I was told that the decision by Journe was to maintain the sites independence, that was not my position or viewpoint. And your argument against print ad dollars vs forum sponsorship is without merit. print ads are very targeted and forums are "independent".

And if a manufacturer chooses not to interfere with the "independence" of this forum by not having any relationship whether financially or via communication in the face of its closure, that seems pretty straightforward to me. Journe basically said you can close or stay open, do whatever you want but do it independently, not based on the sponsorship (even if only financially) of the forum.

Your argument sounds like a desperate justification to get manufacturers to commit to sponsorships and your criticism of members sounds like someone who has forgotten that members make this forum what it is and even worth considering sponsorship.

Your comments remind me of the self important internet customer who feels that just by walking into the store, the store should kiss their ass because they MIGHT be a potential customer, when in fact most of the time these customers paw the product, waste the sales persons time, and then go to buy from the internet for a few dollars less.

And worse, then get sniffy about it.

We appreciate and respect every member of the community here, and treat them as such. BECAUSE THAT IS OUR PRINCIPLE AND FEEL IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO AS CIVILIZED HUMAN BEINGS.

WITH OR WITHOUT substantial contributions from any one guest, to this site, in content, monetary support, or otherwise.

We appreciate and welcome EVERY GUEST here, but any who feel they are too important to not be heard or feel they can justifiably make any demands on how we run this site, is welcome to find more welcoming pastures elsewhere.

We've had people storm off before, and I'm sure they are happier, and we are happier as well.

Please see Ping's brilliant post above.

Thank you, you have just pushed me over the line.

This subject is now closed for discussion.

TM

Based on your premise, the only way a customer is to be treated well is if they provide proof that they are a serious customer walking into the store. first, your business model is in now way even close to a store, so why it would remind you of that is beyond me.

I made a general statement about appreciating members and that I am sure all members deserve to be appreciated, similar to what you stated in your response. My suggestions were merely that. suggestions. I dont want to tell you how to run the site except that members are valuable so to come out and say that we should stop complaining or ask for clarification on the circumstances surrounding the forum closure because we don't pay for the site is absurd.

I always enjoy seeing what Mr. Journe is up to and reading the FPJ forum on PP has always been the best way to do that. Even though I don't always like or respect the watches I'll very much miss reading about them regularly.

Tremendous thanks to Brad for alll his hard work!

_john

Will all old posts group to other thread?? like HOrologicalMEandering or AHCI?


This message has been edited by Ogygia on 2010-06-03 19:20:34

"                 "

Gotcha!

The fact is that we are all either guessing or paraphrasing what was said over the past few months.  Everyone's comments are tainted by certain prejudices that they carry including mine.

Mr. Journe is a very passionate man who is gifted horologically and has worked hard to acheive the success he deserves.

Is there absolutely no correlation between the success of his personal brand started in 1999 to the hyperbolic growth of internet watch forums?  If the internet communities play NO ROLE in his success, how do you explain his lack of financial success in the horological world prior to 1999 despite working in it since age 14? 

It is being honest with yourself, remembering where you come from, and SHARING the success with the people who helped you along the way.  So there is no cryptic message ( and I do not speak for the PuristSPro exec staff ) SHARING means putting money or some tangible effort back into the community that helped you get to where you are today, not just lip service.

But I will just have to wait until Mr. Journe explains himself, if he ever does, but I sincerely hope he voices his thoughts.

The last time Mr. Journe posted anything substantive on the forum was a very passionate letter (in french0 focused on his belief that Jaquet Droz violated his design on using the rehaut ring as a decorative element on a watch dial, a letter which the PuristS was asked to take down by the lawyers at SWATCH.  I didn't need a lesson on the nuances of the French language to get his point either.

I remember the vast amount of support FPJ received.

Do you know what happened three years after the lawsuit was filed and all the information was revealed in court?

Yeah right...

Until everything is out in the open ( and I doubt they ever will) I would just assume we all give thanks to Brad, Felipe, the PuristSPro exec staff, Dr. Mao, and most importantly Mr. Journe for providing us with a warm environment to discuss his creations and part ways amicably for now.  I sincerely hope that we see a FPJ forum soon.

Mike

This message has been edited by mkt33 on 2010-06-03 19:33:40

What happened in Court?

What decision was taken?

Thanks

Cheers

I've lost the link to the official court brief in French.

It encapsulated both the findings and verdicts both in the original court and also the appeals court in Geneva.

Let's just say sometimes Mr. Journe's pride and passion (and Euros) would be better spent  at the watchmaker's bench.

Best, Mike

Much appreciation to Brad for his hard work and dedication.

-MW

and PPro might never come. I hate seeing all of you like this. It's stupid.

It's stupid because all these effort won't yield anything we desire at the end.

Speaking out of personal experience I can say this:"Every human being has flaw, perfection is not a goal but a journey"
Anyone who thinks otherwise only further strengthen the point.

I live in a country where political and social reason are often messy. The politician and social activist often promise one thing and do something else. While they don't ALWAYS does that but often enough for me to take notice and question the ulterior motive.

Am I frustrated? I am. Up to a certain point I want to say "The Hell with this BS, f**k you I am leaving." or "I should go and support your opposition to give you hell"

Then again. I realize one thing. "Every human being has flaw, perfection is not a goal but a journey"

Monsieur Journe is a stubborn man. He had to in order to do what he did and gave us the Resonance, Grande et Petite Sonnerie and Centigrade. He is stubborn to the point he won't have it any other way.

PPro is also a stubborn bunch. Or else it won't attract us to come in here to share. Why? Being a purist is a statement of stubbornness. How can it be explain where a person own more watches than he/she has hands and none of them tell times accurately. The bigger joke is they cost many times more than a cheap digital watch that show precise time. And we keep buying...

Now if that isn't stubborn I don't know what is

The point I'm making is while I have in my heart disagree with the decision that PPro and Monsieur Journe. I am not about to let it bother me. "Every human being has flaw, perfection is not a goal but a journey". We all make mistake. I won't say is it because all I care about is the passion of horology that we share continues, personal agenda is non of my concern.

While i dislike the political leaders in my country, i'm not about to abandon the ppl i love & my family and move to another country. They may have done things i don't agree but in general, they did well.

it is because of PPro i get to meet all of u. I'm not going to let this little episode between PPro & Monsieur Journe gets into my head n piss me off to a point that side track me from sharing the passion of horology with all of u.

I hope you all do the same.

Sincerely,
Tyler.

Hi,

I don't know what took place behind the scene but I trust the PuristSPro management team in their decisions.

I've been a long time fan of Francois-Paul Journe watches, still I confess the passion faded for me in the last years. I don't own one, maybe it will happen someday, but there are other brands that I don't own and they can share the passion for horology with non-owners like me.

Horology is either a passion, or the creation of disposable objects. With the kind of money involved in such pieces I think you must fire the passion if you want to sell, unless you're meeting an excessive success.

I wish success to Mr Journe and I hope that success shared here in a forum someday again.

Cheers

Dje

Not much to add to the plethora of posts other than the 'reaction and outpouring of posts' shows how passionate and dedicated we are about our FPJs. Sad day indeed.

OpC