Independents

Hi...I'm aware that Vianney's team do read this forum.
Can we have a healthy discussion about the servicing process of Vianney's watches?
I'm a big fan of Antiqua and Trio, and would love to one day purchase one.
What's stopping me is its after sales service which I heard was extremely expensive, even for the simple Classic.
Service from other small AHCI members such as Dufour, Kari and URWERK have been affordable and easy.
So why is it I'm feeling the 'fear' and 'worries' from the Vianney's team?
I openly write it here so that everyone interested in his watch may get a clearer view of what's going on, so that there's no misunderstanding of
any. And one may even get away with precious information .

For example, I would like to know if the Antiqua or Trio a watch that can be serviced easily by other capable watchmaker?
We know that Dufour Simplicity is, and to some extent, URWERK also while Journe is difficult due to its case screws.
So does Vianney's watches have special screw to open the case or are they just normal ones?
And is it a watch with a normal movement that's serviceable by anyone decently good?

I think this open discussion may give a clearer view of what's going on and help raise confidence in collectors for Vianney's pieces.
I do think he has a wonderful creations and truly hope he can succeed like the other young independents who come in the scene later, and most likely inspired by him.

Lovesss*CL

If I recall correctly, and their key mission is to pass on the horological knowledge and perfection to the next generation of watch makers. More knowledge and graft transference body, not even the scale of AHCI. I do not recall they do joint servicing or pooling of purchases etc.

It is a very good concept but I'm not sure if it is actually in operation.
Also, most of the watchmakers in that group, if not all , are sill in practice. So it will make more sense to send the watch to original watchmaker,
if possible.
My main issue is not just about the after sale service when the watchmaker is gone, but also about its current service.
Why is Vianney's service so much more expensive than the rest?
Is it because of the way it is created?
I think such concern will affect his brand and it is a shame to see such talented watchmaker may get misunderstood, even at the internet age.
*CL

Let's see what their reply is.

I have not heard that service costs are so much more costly than other watchmakers. However, I am aware how much many other makers charge for service. I've paid $750 for a simple AP jumbo service without any refinishing up to $10000 for servicing a repeated or sonnerie.

Most independents, in my experience are very accommodating when it comes to servicing one of their watches. These makers do not make many watches and are fairly amenable to keeping their customer base happy.

Vianney in particular is most definitely his own man. He beats to his own drummer and, his time is valuable. I hear Vianney has waiting lists for his Trio and Antiqua. Vianney makes basically the entire watch in house - case, crown, dials, hands, only the movement plate and escapement and mainspring are outsourced and finished in house. Taking his time away from his normal activities obviously comes at a cost.

Regarding your question about can anyone 'good' work on a vianney watch - sure. I have seen watchmakers work on some crazy claret base repeaters and sonneries, nutty gentas, mullers, etc. He'll, parmigiani, Voutilainen, even Daniels got started by working on restoring old watches. While the antiqua is complicated, I'm sure it's one thing to invent the movement and another to service it.

We have had the discussion before on these fora - servicing issues in this day and age are 'normally' and 'usually' easily taken care of. Price paid for service is a relative discussion. If that's what your issue is, what is a fair service price to pay for a watch costing 1000, 10000, 50000, 100000, 150,000?

Service is a personal choice. I have some watches which I service every 3 to 5 years and others over 10 which have never given me an issue (eta 7750 based). Some pieces I polish - others I dont. Again - it's personal.

I will let you know what I hear from Janvier SA. .

No worry my friend! Service schmervis! You know lots of folks to help get anything done!!

Best,

asg

around $15k for a routine servicing, if more need to be done, it will be more.
I sent my PLM to Germany for routine servicing, it costs around $3500 and they have to dismantle the entire fusee chain and only one woman there do that.
The unrealistic service price raise an alarm to me, it's very scary.
*CL

Basic service is 6000/7000 CHF but to make it like a brand new one, it will be between 12000CHF to 18000CHF.
That was what I was told when I questioned abut the 15000CHF service cost.
Maybe because the watch is heavily handmade, hence the super high cost to service , especially the case.
*CL

Your questions have implications for the owners of Vianney watches, and all other independents. I can imagine there will be some extra difficulty and expense in servicing these watches, both in the short term and long term. And no one knows yet quite what will happen when this generation of watchmakers may retire or otherwise be unable to provide service to their specialized masterpieces.

Turning back to service costs, I am a big Vianney fan, and owner. I do share your concern regarding service costs, which actually has given me second thoughts about purchasing more of these wonderful watches. Frankly I don't know the costs of service by other independents, but I do understand that the costs quoted to service one of Vianney's watches is maybe 2-4 times what I understand of service costs (even for some complicated pieces) by larger brands. It is not clear to me how these costs are so much different, though certainly the smaller scale of Vianney's or another smaller operation is a factor.

I appreciate your efforts to make this a positive discussion.

Your Vianney piece is a great beauty.
I also hope we can get a better understanding through this open and civil discourse.
I don't want to avoid his beautiful watches just because of my perception as I can be wrong and there might
be good reason why its after sales service is so demandingly expensive.
I once met a big collector who won a Vianney Classic through auction. He was planning to send the watch to Vianney for servicing
but didn't after knowing the price. I later pass him Ricardo's contact but I was surprise Vianney's company did not point him to Ricardo.
Maybe what Vianney needs is someone like Yacine from URWERK ;-)
*CL

Regarding the Classic, it is easily serviceable in NYC, by VH authorised watchmaker Ricardo.

The Antiqua is another story, this in my opinion is a relatively delicate watch and as such, has to be handled in such a way. It is an extra-ordinary perpetual calendar and having visited St. Croix where Vianney and his team give birth to a couple of these a year, I can tell you it needs to go back there for any servicing issues. It is too complicated and unusual for a run off the mill watchmaker to work on. Part of the uniqueness of this piece is in the movement construction; which if one is not trained in and very familiar with, can easily damage it.

I understand why Vianney doesn't want people messing with his creations, as I have first hand experience of some butcher getting hold of a Contemporaine and doing several thousand dollars worth of damage, scratching the case trying to open it, marking and scratching the selfwinding bridge and generally showing to anyone with any minor bit of fine watchmaking knowledge, that whoever did it, ought to find another line of work.

The other aspect is habillage, that is the dial, hands & case work, that takes years of experience to master, and I would argue that Vianney's is some of the most detailed and complicated in the business. Refinishing his cases is not for the faint of heart and requires special tools and knowledge in order to correctly carry out what he requires to his standards. Few people are trained to do this.

One can argue that for the success of a watchmaker like Vianney, access to reasonably cost effective methods of service etc. is important and in the long run I agree, however it is extremely difficult to find watchmakers of this caliber. There are probably only a handful of his colleagues for example in the AHCI, that he would trust to work on his complicated watches. However, they have their own businesses to run, so there is the dilemma for the consumer. Send it back to St. Croix and wait...

I understand CL's question, but I don't think there is a simple solution. And I would agree that it affects the value of his work in the secondary market, borne out by the dismal auction results his work fetches on the odd occasion it comes up.

Not sure I have helped here, but did want to chime in with some viewpoints garnered over the years. So far my Classic has performed flawlessly, but as and when it needs servicing, I will be sending it to NYC.

Cheers,

Tim

I believe it's the perception of its service difficulty that create the dismay results of Antiqua in auction.
It is such a gorgeous watch and I seriously can't think of any other reason.
If only Ricardo can also service His antiqua.
It's like Alkis, Lange is so popluar in USA partly because of Alkis excellent service.
Unfortunately, Alkis can only service up to Dato but even then
the cost of Lange servicing in Germany is very reasonable.
When I sent my PLM for routine servicing, it's only about $3500.
Vianney's Antiqua is around $15k for routine servicing...gosh.
Again, I must say I love the watch very very much.
*CL

Smaller company or not I would never pay that after paying that for a watch. Crazy to me and I believe people knowing that will rethink getting one... I had no idea..

thank goodness I do not like the antigua.

Thank you,

asg

From my notes and your comments, these might be ballpark costs for a full service of the following watches. Please correct me where I might be wrong. Would also be interesting to hear about service for other independents.
Datograph $1500
Lange Tourb PLM $3500
Patek 5050 $5000
VH Antiqua $15,000

Definitely a large gap, and not sure how this makes sense.

The good news is that maybe these costs contribute in some way to make VH watches more affordable on the secondary market. Add in service costs, and you still have a watch very hard to beat at a given price. The bad news is that a soft secondary market likely also makes for a more difficult retail market.

Would be interesting to learn more why such differences in service costs.

Kudos again CL for bringing up this issue, which is often overlooked, but in the big picture so important to the long term ownership experience.

Vianney's 1500CHF fee is meant to make the watch to factory condition.
When I send my Pisa Dato to Germany to make it like factory condition (brand new condition)....it costs $2500 instead of $1500.
Vianney's basic servicing is 7000CHF , though expensive , I think I can still accept it if the watch can be guaranteed to function well for a long time after the service.
*CL

Are we confusing servicing with rebuilding to factory condition? 

Think of cars:

- A routine service (oil plugs, brakes etc) shouldnt cost a fortune. 
- A motor and gearbox rebuild is going to be more expensive.
- A total rebuild to factory condition is going to cost an awful lot more, and almost certainly far more than the car is worth unless it's highly collectible.

Watchmakers and high-end manufacturers seem to be think "servicing" means rebuilding to factory conditions when I suspect many people here think it means a lube job and polish.

nick

which is very not often, I also expect the watch to come back in like new condition.
At least that's my experience with Dufour, Journe, Lange and Patek....they all came back looking spanking new.
For Vianney basic service, not rebuilding...it is around 7000 CHF , not exactly cheap either but I think I can accept, considering the rarity of the watch. But of course if I can have another watchmaker, such as Alkis, do the lubing and cleaning, it will save me a lot and probably faster too.
So I'm wandering if this watch can be opened easily by other watchmakers and be serviced?
Anyone knows?
*CL

To all,

CL, and to others in this post -

I think there is some unintentional of course, mis-information in this thread. 

For disclosure, I am an owner of a VH timepiece.

I was just informed that it would not cost 15,000 for a service unless there were parts of the case and/or movement which would need to be replaced and/or the watch was abused and/or mistreated in some way.   

I think that CL has also clarified his statement that a "standard" service would be in the range of 6K CHF.  I also believe this price to be on the high side based upon my discussions with the Janvier SA folks.   I have been quoted a lot, lot, lot less if I were to service my watch - good news for me is my watch does not require a routine service for many years.

I do not think it was intentional CL, but I believe that your posting of the amount that you were told a service would cost has scared a few collectors - in fact, there are a few posts above to prove it. 

I think we all must remember that this is the internet and there is alot of good info - and some bad - I have to put this in the good intentions with bad outcome pile. 

In my 10+ years of collecting, I have yet to experience pricing like this - and I dont intend to either.  If you are a true owner and lover of the VH brand, you will be well taken care of.  That's all I have to say about that. 

Be well - and I hope this has clarified things -

asg

Vianney has had a number of his watches returned for repair - because they were mistreated or mishandled by certain thoughtless and unappreciative customers - just banged around in the bush.

You don't scratch up a case that may have taken at least 100 hours and more to polish and then expect it to look perfectly new - without a price!

amerix
This message has been edited by amerix on 2010-12-15 11:57:52

.

There's nothing to be excited about.
I was first quoted 15000CHF and then after further asking why it is so expensive, was told that 12000CHF -18000CHF will bring the watch to factory standard. Basic servicing is 6000-7000CHF.
So for any one who wants the watch to come back fresh and new, it is still very expensive. So the basic servicing is still not cheap at any standard, IF you are ok with just the basic servicing of the watch and not refinishing.
Good that you know your Antiqua needs no servicing for many years to come, if only that's so reliably true to all mechanical watches.
*CL

if people are scare , this is only because I'm scare too when I was told.
Adam....such discussion is only GOOD for Vianney. Too many people have the doubts about it and no one really ask, all just claim
that from what they know , it is ridiculously EXPENSIVE. I was being told several times by other collectors and this was my first time I asked the manufacturer and I was scared too.
If I show you the full email, you will understand what I mean but as a gentleman, I won't and can't.
Such unopen discussion among collectors has more or less affected the confidence of his brand with collectors, don't you think it is
WISE to have this discussion openly and in a civil manner so that if there's any misunderstanding, they are given a chance to address it.

So at least now we know the BASIC servicing is 6000-7000CHF and we , the collectors can then decide if that's an ok range or not when we
plan to purchase the watch.
You are being very sensitive because you now have an Antiqua which I totally adore. You know that I love the watch as we have been talking alot about the possible transaction / trade with your Antiqua.
As someone like myself who is very interested to own an Antiqua, such discussion and understanding is important to me.
Hope you understand, there is no any misleading information. It has been discussed in private for a while, hence the dismal pricing in the secondary market and auctions.
Such watch deserves better marketing. I remember it was Dr Bernard Cheong who first brought this watch to my attention....his passionate love of this watch still linger in my head
*CL

This message has been edited by CL on 2010-12-15 14:46:05

Hi All,

I think it's clear that much of this discussion has been confused by some miscommunications and or misunderstandings, but I wanted to add a few comments anyway about the cost of properly servicing watches and what is involved.

It is generally taken for granted that watch companies lose money on service. Some lose more than others of course and some deliver less than others, but the idea that service is performed to support sales is basically universal in my experience. This doesn't mean that an independent service center cannot be profitable, but they will necessarily cut corners where they can or otherwise not be able to deliver the same level of "factory spec" movement or case and bracelet refurbishment either because they can't afford the labor hours, parts costs of elaborate tooling required.

The difficulties in making good sense of the business model for large companies where extensive R&D, tool development, training (internal and external), technical documentation and significant handling/processing overhead exist are probably not obviously applicable to an independent creator's workshop environment, but it is easy to imagine a small artisanal shop just saying, "Let's charge for service what it costs us" and letting the chips fall where they may. This is not to say that a shop's inability or unwillingness to make their service processes efficient enough to make them affordable to some extent will not come back to bite them, but there aren't too many artist-craftsman that frequently suffer the epithet "brilliant businessman", you know?

With regards to the comparison to car servicing, it's a very limited analogy. It would be more accurate if an oil change could not be performed on an automobile without completely removing and dismantling the engine, but even then it's not at all easy to know when a watch needs a routine service and when it needs an overhaul even though most watchmakers can agree on what starts to become a restoration I think. The difference between service and overhaul is not well agreed upon by watchmakers even in the same company in my experience because of the massive labor involved in either with respect to the movement at least (taking it apart and putting it back together takes the lion's share of the time assuming replacement parts are available). Case refinishing or refurbishing issues are at least as nuanced and subject to variability from one shop or company to the next and should definitely not be discounted in such a discussion (if you'll excuse the pun).

At any rate 15K sounds crazy as a generality although perhaps not so much in some specific instances and 6-7K slightly less so.

_john

John, do you by any chance know if Antiqua is a watch that can be serviced by a good , careful watchmakers like yourself and Alkis?
Or if it needs special screw driver to open the case, like the Journe's ?
I believe its movement is an adapted one and part of the belief by Vianney is to use parts that will always be available , so in theory, it is feasible, right?
*CL

Hi CL,

The special screws some watches use can absolutely be worked around by any decent watchmaker (which is certainly the point: decent watchmaker). I imagine the largest concerns with the Antiqua would be the specific knowledge/experience of the decasing and casing procedures and perhaps special movment holders required for same.

I also imagine most watchmakers skilled enough to perhaps pull it off would be unwilling to use a customer's watch as a proving ground to attempt to do so under normal circumstances. The possibility of damaging a component (hands, dial or case part especially) that is Janvier made simply due to inexperience with the model (as opposed to lack of skill) would be ever present and leave one with the need to manufacture something with great time investment as a best case scenario.

You'd have a much better time finding someone who absolutely should NOT be working on it offering to try than you would of finding someone who is genuinely equipped to do so. Great skill is generally only gained alongside a modicum of wisdom and prudence thankfully.

_john

Once again i maintain there has never been a negative situation w/ vianney's servicing! I think we all have to be clear what happens if a pc is on it's 5th owner. I own 4 vh pcs and 2 have had to be serviced. They were handled professionally , fairly, and the work which could have gone either way was handled at n/c. I think the key deals with being the firstband only owner!! How do you all feel?2