Independents

as suggested by MTF in 2008
I was originally suggested by me in 2007 to name 5 Independent watches and 5 Mainstream pieces and brought up by dear Rob in 2008.
Let's do it again but as suggested by MTF, Single 'Forced Choice'......it works well with current economy state ;-)
You can state your reasoning too as it makes your train of thoughts more interesting.
Also, do state one piece of mainstream watch too so we can see what you are seeing in relation to what your independent watch is.
I start first........

Independent - DUFOUR SIMPLICITY.

At one point I was hoping that the movement is something more special, be it a hidden tourbillion like the PP5101, an Observatory rate movement or even something like the Dufour Duality.
Now, I just love the fact that it is just simply a very well made, well finished watch based on the tradition of watchmaking in Vallee de Joux. There's no pretense to be anything else, no further complication, just a simple piece of watch that tells time and constantly reminds you the beautiful craft of watchmaking in its purest.
It is a very zen piece and one that I'm very proud to finally 'understand' it.

MainStream- PATEK 5970 (yawn yawn) .

It is a watch that I first love, desire and eventually got it., hate it/sell it due to the hype and then buy it back again due to love and hate it again
due to further hype....... it's the continuation of love/hate that makes this watch to this list.
I believe this feeling will constantly be there, maybe that's good
It is very good looking and very wearable, making it a very slight notch above my close second, Lange PLM Tourbillon.

I look forward to hear from you guys
Please keep it to only one choice each .
Cheers

thanks CL for reviving this thread and I certainly appreciate the point out.

Unfortunately at this time, am having slight difficulty adhering to the title stated above. Some time ago, In another time, I would have easily stated Simplicity as my SFC for Indies. However, as time and life has progressed, I find myself getting drawn more and more onto Kari V's masterpieces, notably his Observatoire which I am most fortunate to own and wear. Whilst Dufour is the originator and benchmark, I have yet to strap on my Simplicity. On the other hand, having spent considerable time with my Observatoire has led it to many scratches and dings. This makes it a tangible recorder of my time with it. A solid memoire of experiences shared.

Now when the Simplicity arrives, AND it undergoes the same process, I might change my mind then. Something of a grail, thus still unattained, takes a lot of my attention and admiration. Like perhaps a successful person I admire for his genius/tenacity/success etc. A supermodel who is not only beautiful but also smart.

All too often, I mistakenly ignore what I have in my surroundings. Maybe I have reached a stage and incoming age of supposed maturity that I have started to really take stock of what I have and am appreciating them even more. Successful person I admired from afar? I now instead look up even more to my dad who in my mind is the person MOST worthy of my admiration, respect and love. Supermodel I longed for in my mind? Its now my wife who has been with me through it all and will always be there for me.

At this point, I choose to withhold making any choice for mainstream. Can't choose between Lange PLM and PP 3970. Both stir up underlying emotions and prefer to keep this short. I guess after airing out my thoughts, my choice has crystallized and I am choosing to follow stringently the title of Single Forced Choice albeit with a small correction.

My Single Choice is unequivocally the Kari V Observatoire.

will ask you again next year
*CL

Over the years I have come to most appreciate a simple but artistic expression of time, and when it comes to the ultimate execution of such a watch, I have to lean toward the Observatoire or Simplicity.  I have not yet been forutnate enough to spend considerable time with both of these watches, but I have to say that the Observatoire stirs more passion for me at the moment.  Whether or not it is a minus that the Observatory movement was not manufactured in-house, I also love the concept of the extreme time-keeping accuracy for which this was designed.  And it is breathtaking what Kari has accomplished in its decoration and finishing.

Perhaps just as important is that the Observatoire has almost perfect dimensions and fit.  38 mm wide and 10.5 mm high (if I remember correctly) is a near perfect proportion.  Seems a dressy watch with a substantial presence on the wrist.  One hallmark of this design is also a large dial and thin bezel that gives the watch a visual pop like nothing else I recall.

Now if asked to add a favorite from the "mainstream," I would choose 5970G (followed in second place by 5070P).  Interestingly also not an in-house movement.  Also interesting that from the independents I am most drawn to "simplicity," while from Patek I am most drawn to complications.

it is a splendid piece with lots of character and elegance.
It is only edged by Simplicity in my case because of the way the case is made, sits way bigger than a 38mm on my small wrist.
I'm not comfortable with elegant watch being too big on me.
And also, being the only forced choice, I choose a watch that has nothing but everything
Observatoire , as beautiful as it is , doesn't fit this 'nothingness' ;-)
But for u, you should definitely give Observatoire a try.
Lovesss*CL

(though that some others have questioned in previous posts) is that each piece is different.  Between differences in case (metal and size and lugs), dial color, dial finish, romans vs arabics (plus flipped vs non-flipped), hands, movement finish (eg rhodium finished vs frosted rose gold vs engraved, slow beat vs fast beat), etc I would guess it is likely that each of the approx 40 watches produced could be unique.  What a treat to have one of such a limited series, perhaps each unique by itself, but instantly identifiable in design and quality and history.

In the bigger picture, I will add that I am so impressed by Kari's designs looking at his line of watches.  Besides the Observatoire, I have to say that his Chronometre 27 and Chronograph are two of my other very favorite watches.  And if I really want to dream, I could stare a good part of the day at pics of his decimal repeaters.

for example, has Richard Mille become mainstream?  Defined as ordinarily available??  Richard would probably shoot me for suggesting such a thing!

Independent: GF 24 Second Incine, white gold, dark dial.  Just love the speed of the escapement - mesmerizing.

Mainstream (and apologies to Richard for this): RM002 ti - the sports watch, now iconic, original design.

Not likely to buy or be able to buy either in the near or far future!

Andrew H

make a very wonderful weekday/weekend wear combo
Excellent choice.
But knowing you a bit, and how subtle you are and you being a British gentleman, I think Roger Smith Series 2 or a RS tourbillon should be your Independent watch. It will mean a lot.
Lovesss*CL

Philippe Dufour: Simplicity

Lange: Anniversary Langematik

But, before I receive my Simplicity, hopefully soon, among the few watches that I am fortunate to have owned, my favorites have been

Vianney Halter: Goldpfeil

Lange: Anniversary Langematik

This is an interesting topic, and John your choice really makes sense to me.

your choice makes perfect sense too
Actually, my mainstream choice may even change to Credor Eichi ;-)
*CL

Independent: I've been attracted to independent watches since I first became aware of them in the early part of this decade. I'm certainly a fan of Dufour's Simplicity and I even took the time to visit him in 2005. But I didn't order one due to the fact that I was a dedicated VC collector. I came to regret that decision and started to look at other independent watchmakers (Dufour had since closed the order book on the Simplicity). Kari had come onto the scene and I was impressed by both his movement finishing and sense of design. But my inquiry about getting an Observatory watch happened between the time when his first stock of Peseux movements had been allocated but before he had received a second batch to make another production run.

I still had the bug and I discovered Daniel Roth's work after he left his eponymous brand. The Jean Daniel Nicolas two-minute tourbillon is what I ultimately ordered, and of course is my "one forced choice." Below is one of Daniel's progress report photographs:

Mainstream: If I begin with the independent watch, I'd like to balance it aesthetically with a contrasting piece from a mainstream brand (whereas many collectors seem to go to independents like Halter, Sarpaneva, MB&F, and Urwerk for the bold and innovative designs as a contrast with the more classical pieces from mainstream brands). I'm choosing Vacheron Constantin and the Quai de l'Ile. I'd take the titanium Date model. I find it versatile as both a dress and sport watch in terms of appearance.




Bill

Audemars Piguet 15002 st.

I find these two watches to exemplify everything I ever dreamed about in watch collecting. The Dufour for me, embodies all things Ultimate and unsurpassable, at all levels. Since owning it, I have bought and sold many a watch, and lately, it is the only one I really care about. Owning it has spoiled me for all other watches except steel or ti sport. The Simplicity is everything they say it is and much, much more. I am happy for you, CL, that you have come to 'understand' it. The subtlety of the watch can hit very soft on the eyes of the big watch wearer, the complicated watch wearer, the mad-collector buying and selling. IT is everything that has been lost to modern watchmaking. It is unlike any watch I have ever owned or ever will own. Even when Dufour makes his next reference, the Simplicity will always be the watch that made him, first.

For mainstream, The AP represents the Icon of design, truly amazing finish, and steel sport/luxury that continues to influence the watch world in an immeasurable way. It seems to be the transition place between Now and Then. The dial has an old world fineness, while the watch as a whole oozes The Modern. These two watches are wonderfully different, and if I only had these two, I could happily 'die' from all collecting. This message has been edited by Mostel on 2009-10-28 22:05:00

Although I might choose a Voutilainen Cal. 27 over the Dufour Simplicity becasue it would give me a rectanugular shaped watch to complement the RO, and becasue I have long loved the regulator time reading.  Not sure about this one, but  for all of the reasons you gave for the Simplicity, I might in the end choose that -- LOL, as if this is going to happen for me. I can understand how the Simplicity would spoil ou for all other watches.

I totally agree on the RO 15002.  Perfect, iconic, enduring. When I first came across this post my initial response was that for the mainstream watch, I would have to choose a Jaeger LeCoultre because I cannot imagine being without one at this point.  But there again, the 15002 has JLC as its heart and soul, so I guess that need would be covered. 

So, now the question is, do I sell my other watches and work my way towards this simplified collection of two watches?  I also agree with you about the desiree to also hve a sport steel or Ti watch, so maybe just three watches... ;-)

Best,

respo

with the Kari 27
It makes lots of sense to have a rec watch to go with your other one. And 27 is so damn yummy. I have a friend who has one and I wore it on my wrist during a gathering in NYC, it's difficult to return back to him...sigh.
*CL

but it is a watch that requires you to try many others and then come back to the realization that 'THIS' is it
Just like life , need no complication ....... simple and focus. It's difficult but one can dream.
*CL

I think your Duo choice is a very excellent one. One is extremely rare and super well respected and the other one is just so versatile and interesting.
A very good mix and I really forward to the day you receive the JDN Tourbillion. It is a very super machine with extreme crafting involve.
And you are the only person I know who has it, happy to know one owner
Lovesss*CL

which will be so much better than what I can do!

Bill

But note that I will emphasize the emotional appeal and not the technical part of the watch
I think the beauty of such watch is the emotional appeal it brings to the audience.
I hope I can photograph your watch and make others 'feel' it too
Lovesss*CL

The JDN watch is a "sleeper" which in future will be recognised as one of the ultimate independently-made watches. It's made by a bona fide grandmaster, in exceedingly low quantities, and to an excruciatingly high standard. The watch itself is simply exquisite, and most importantly of all, it oozes the personality of its maker from every finely finished facet.

This, from a fortunate Observatoire owner.

I have never enquired as to the cost of such a prize and really, I don't want to know, because the information would probably kill me.


As to the VC Quai de L'Isle - I have struggled to like this watch, but gradually I am being won over. I suspect that judicious choice of materials and colours is key to the Quai. Anyone discerning enough to put their hard-won cash down on a JDN deserves respect for their refined taste - I suspect the QdL will continue to grow in my estimation, not least because you have given it your vote.

Cheers
Tony P

Daniel is getting very close to the assembly/testing stage and I should have the watch by the end of the year. I will be excited to share photos and stories when that day arrives.

As for the price, it is more than fair, considering that the movement is Daniel's own. Many brands price their tourbillons at a similar price point.

 

Bill

Nice Topic CL,

I have to say that it does not surprise me that the Simplicity comes up time and again.  It is (from pictures) a stunning watch.  I have never seen one, but it feels so soft and full of life and passion.  You can never disagree with someone choosing that!

However for my Independent, I choose Kari's Observatoire.  A fantastic watch that has so much character, and all 30-something watches are most likely different in some ways.  Its been an honour to receive this from Kari who is a super friendly guy.  I got mine literally yesterday!

 

Quiz: What's unique about this one?

I love the lugs, the tear drops are so classical and yet with Kari's style all over the dial in a modern interpretation.  The experience with Kari also leads me to vote for the Obersvatoire.  Helpful with suggestions all the way through.  I got ideas from him from strap colour to balance cock style, to dial, numbers, flipped, not flipped....

Mainstream:  Journe Resonance

The is the other watch i own that i will never sell.  OK, yes I can buy it back, its not as rare as a Dufour or Kari, but again it has the hallmarks of a brilliant watchmaker.  Its uniquely identifiable, and a watch that has been "copied" by another one else.  The golden movement is stunning and warm, coupled with the rawness of the dial. 

Again here i am also buying the man behind the watch.  thats another part of the watch ownership experience. 

Another lovely piece joins the fold.

As for the quiz: the hands. This dial/numeral combination usually features the 'standard' white/blue hour, minute and second hands: yours are all white (and look great!). All WG?

 

Cheers,

pplater.

that Journe is considered 'mainstream'
Congratulation on your Observatoire...what a great choice of dial color.
It is partly because Kari observatoire is a 'mix' of modern and vintage that it 'fails' to make it to my only 'forced' independent choice.
Simplicity is purer in that sense and the name 'Simplicity' just says it all for me.
BUT......if Kari is a 'mainstream' like Journe, it will surely make it to my 'forced' mainstream choice. So as you can see,
the Observatoire is very very close , hairline close to be the chosen one.
And Kari , the watchmaker, is just so so sweet
Lovesss*CL

Is that case WG?  And now how about a picture of the movement...........

Congratulations!

My reasoning for choosing that case was above.  In summary, I love that white metal case for the Observatoire, since I almost see it as his trademark.  I thought the grey dial was a fanastic combination and i didnt have a grey dial watch.  Now, since I felt this "dressed down" the KV Obs, I thought it would be appropriate to have this in steel. 

Has there been a more expensive steel watch?!!  I dont know how many he made in steel, but as a "rational" consumer, most would choose one of the of the gold cases i expect since the steel is actually the same price!  Not I.  The steel matches the feeling i get from this wonderful timepiece

most beautiful Observatoire I have seen so far.

May I ask you three questiones?

• Do you have a matt finish on the side of the case?
• How does it feel (in steel) on your wrist?
  
• A picture of your movement

Thanks
Oliver

you didn't already write perfectly!

That said, my own "choices" ...

and probably have reached the 'Nirvana' stage for watch collecting.
Curious to know what's your 'own choices'......care to be more specific?
Will be very inspiring for many
*CL

but I do take my "responsibility" very seriously, which preclude me from a simple "listing" of my "one and only."

Simplicity? KV? Haldimann?

AP? Lange?  LUC? Other?

Not so easy, and if I consider how I myself might evolve and change, even if I don't learn anything substantively new (like discovering that someone used CNC when they claimed they didn't, or another uses a special, proprietary jewel shock absorber when the average laymen sees a KIF) - ie, my taste simply changes, like my preference for colors or tight vs loose clothing, no other reason needed or necessary - then I am VERY hesitant to answer the question simply, as I don't want to come across as a hypocrite later.

Does that make any sense?

The beauty of Zen is that no explanations are offered, none demanded. Each is up to themselves to interpret it any way they want.

Alas, watch appreciation is far from a Zen experience, especially in the area of watch discussion.

Cheers,

TM