Patek Philippe

Patek Philippe is one of the few watch companies that consistently produce movements that meet the Geneva Seal, but the venerable watch manufacturer has made quite clear that it has outgrown the Geneva Seal and is ready to produce movements of even greater quality than the bare minimum standards imposed by the Geneva Seal.

A question to PuristS;

1. If Patek abandons the Geneva Seal and institutes its own "Patek Seal" that has higher requirements than the Geneva Seal, do you think this is a good thing? Keep in mind, the Geneva Seal is a third party government body which has years of reputation when the Patek Seal is a new invention.

2. How else would you implement a new seal? Patek wants to differentiate itself from other Geneva Seal producers because Patek watches go above and beyond the Geneva Seal requirements. How would you continue the Geneva Seal tradition but keep brands like Patek staying aboard?

3. Does the new seal make Patek a more attractive watch or less attractive watch?

Below are scans of the new logo of the new Seal.

 

This message has been edited by patrick_y on 2009-03-20 00:58:47 This message has been edited by Dje on 2009-03-20 06:34:45

1. I am very sorry to see Patek leave the Geneva Seal of which it has been the superstar receiver of said Seal for so many years. I think the Geneva Seal is a good indication of solid quality, detailed finishing, and is the benchmark of fine movements. I do not believe that the new Patek Seal can establish the same immediate recognition as the Geneva Seal possesses, at least not in the short term.

2. To differentiate bare minimum Geneva Seal movements and Patek watches that go above and beyond Geneva Seal requirements, there needs to be some sort of identifiable differentiation. For instance, Patek could have both the Geneva Seal Hallmark and the Patek Philippe Seal Hallmark both stamped on the movement. If this is too redundant, then a coloured Geneva Seal could be stamped on movements that meet a special level of Geneva Seal requirements.

3. The new seal does continue to make Patek an attractive watch in the eyes of consumers and collectors alike. However, the lack of an identifiable and widely accepted standard (this being the Geneva Seal) is cumbersome. Personally, I would be very sad to see Patek dump the Geneva Seal from its movements, since I consider it to be a time honed tradition. I think it will eventually boil down to which watches get the Patek Philippe Seal (I'm assuming not every watch will get it) and which ones will only qualify for the Geneva Seal. If Patek plays the game like this and charges a premium for watches with the Patek Philippe Seal, I think it will be soon well-accepted. But it also sets a bad precedent, what happens when other companies that barely go above and beyond start making their own seals. Then we'll be back to where we started. This message has been edited by patrick_y on 2009-03-20 01:10:17

... if Patek can maintain this new standard, it will only be a good thing, an ideal method to raise the bar a few notches up. 

Do we know who and when Geneva sealed was created ??  I like to know if this Patek seal is patented or registered for Patek watches only ??  Will other watch brands be allowed to create their own seal ?? 

Still many un-answered questions.

I don't see what the PP seal adds to the PP label on the watch? It's not like any other manufacturer is going to use that seal?

This add appears in the French "Montre Passion" magazine, so hopefully it can be shared here :

Sorry but these pictures are under embargo until wednesday afternoon! The official information I've had from Patek Philippe is that it was not supposed to be sent to the press yet! I'm a bit suprised to see it as an ad in a magazine, but I unfortunately can't let it online!  Thank you for your understanding.  Dje
This message has been edited by Dje on 2009-03-22 01:46:54

Hello Patrick,

I would not worry about the absence of the Geneva seals on any of my Pateks at all!

As you might have realized there are lots of vintage Pateks without the Geneva seal and they obtain highest prices as well.

Every watch collector knows that Patek meets highest standards and pays for the watches accordingly - they would sell their watches even if they had absolutely no seal on them. PP stands for quality with their name!

just my thoughts and experience

kind regards

Erich

the geneva seal is ofcourse more important than a cosc certificate. But on the other hand I think they're more a marketing gimmick

But If PP says they have even higher standards I do believe them.  We don't need a extra seal, we already know enough when Patek Philippe is written on the dial.

What if Lamborghini would add a seal saying that they make superlative sportcars. That's what we expect from Lamborghini or Patek right ?

 

Maybe one thing ... if they really think they need such a seal, I wish it were also a third party who created a 'super' seal. When manufacturers create their own seal, you have nothing to compare. We all know Patek  makes superb watches and their finishing is wonderfull ... with or without a seal

If Patek did move away from the Geneva Seal.

In my mind, their watches far outstrip other brands that also has this seal.

If this new seal means that their watches would have to meet a more stringent criteria, then that is fine with me.

Patek Philippe are still the pinnacle of watch manufacture in my eyes...

Hi,

I understand Patek Philippe's current position towards the Geneva seal. If they think the Seal is not stringent enough for today's market and for their watches, they are right to go beyond and definitely entitled to do so.

Still I honestly don't think a current PP calibre is in any way better finished than a current Geneva sealed Vacheron Constantin calibre. Patek Phillipe is not alone above everybody else.

The Patek Philippe strength so far was that their whole range of watches was Geneva sealed. Now they probably feel it is not enough because some brands get one calibre on one specific watch sealed and then communicate on this, associating themselves with the positive image of the Geneva Seal, creating possibly the feeling that they are on par with the Patek Philippe finish, what can be true for the specific watch sealed, but is far from true on the vast majority of their range!

I would take (I've seen nothing official so far as I've received no press kit from Patek Philippe yet) a Patek Philippe Seal as a commitment to the customer, more than as a reference seal like the Geneva Seal is. I see a seal as a recognition from a referee, that's IMO the limit of  a Patek Philippe Seal. Again I have no idea of what this seal will be.

We will certainly know more next week!

Cheers

Dje

Well put, why is eveyone assuming they will not add the PP seal on top of the Geneva Seal anyway ?

If PP the company, is giving itself the PP seal, it has no value over and above the PP label itself. It may be the greatest company in the world, & may have the best finished products, but such a seal is meaningless in terms of a quality benchmark. To have any credibility, the PP seal has to be given by an independent body.  Otherwise, it is just a marketing technique, IMHO, an unnecessary one.

 fnk

hi, do you guys think that this move from pp would affect the perception of quality of pp watches. after all the geneva seal is a separate entity that impects the pp watches. ity seems to me that then anybody( omega cartier vacheron rolex) could have their own seal. thanks jorge

What makes Patek watches special is the quality and attention to detail and design that is in them.   I really don't think the Geneva Seal is what makes them special... it's the watches themselves.    I think most people that own them recognize that.  I think what ultimately sells the watches is the superlative quality not the Seal.  For example,  watches, as I understand,  must be assembled in Geneva to qualify for the Seal, would we no longer buy them if PP decided to move to another town?  I don't think so as long as the quality remains.

Glenn1

 

It was one thing for the Misters Stern to place and bid on their own creations with a certain well known auction house, therewith setting (well publicized) world record prices and thereby "enhancing" the global perception of the "worth" of their products, but I find this most recent move, implying that the historic standards of the Poincon de Geneve / Geneva Seal are no longer "good enough" as the absolute height of arrogance. Enough, in fact to make me seriously consider parting with the pieces I now hold bearing their name.

hi, today i went to pp's web site. they stii mention the geneva seal as a very important part of pp's reputation. i agree and i am impressed with tha quality of pp watches i owe a pp-5146 and i enjoy it very much, maybe this has no importance in the future but i feel somewhat protected by the association with the geneva seal thank jorge

No message body

As many people in this forum do have an idea about the problems I have faced with PP watches its a sure thing that if the are going to give them a seal of their own standard its going to be very low.

They cant even get a dial straight at times. A regular 5711/1A has gone in twice to get the dial problem sorted and now will go in once again as it looses power reserve.

Forget the seal as its pure marketing.

A simple tag or rolex watch would have higher standards. These guys have higher marketing.

No matter how much I love their watches after the dealing I have had with this company I am never going to buy a PATEK not until the really do some thing about the quality of the watches they produce.

AP is the way to go and they have got my business already and I dont have any issue's with the watches bought from them.

....it's just a SEAL.......I think that a true watch enthusiasts will continue to worry more about the continuation
of the quality and level of finish and not what type of mini-stamp is hammered to the bridge of the caliber.
(At least I do not see any Lange owners worrying about not having Geneva (or any other) seal. Do you ?

Just my $0.02

A PP seal might be the boldest move by PP to make itself succumb to higher qualitiy and finishing on their waches. It would be seriously a new benchmark and confidence booster for PP.

However, a PP seal will also be viewed as a 'self-regulating' standard which PP has created. This might result in the seal's purpose be backfired as how companies have collapsed due to their own 'internal audit'/'performance benchmarks'. How remuneration and bonuses are set by companies might not be in line with what is actually being executed by the board of directors. PP might face this problem in due time.

I believe PP with without doubt set their own standards higher than the Geneva seal, however, in the long run and across their whole range, i doubt they would be able press ahead and might even result in their standards being lower than the Geneva seal. Worst of all, they might just pass it off without even having a QC done. 99% of self-regulation would result in failure by experience. That, would be such a disappointment comming from a marque like PP.