Comments:
Quick question regarding Archive vs Cert. of Orig.
I am about to pull the trigger on one of 2 Patek 5110's from overseas dealers. Both are in gently used example condition, but here is my dilemma one has Archive papers and the other has Cert. of Orig. Price difference of $2000 between them.
Should I be concerned about the archive paperwork? Or is paperwork just paperwork?
Thanks for your help
Archive papers suggest the watch has been back to PP.
I would think that's as good, or better, than CofO. Maybe even serviced.
That brings a question: What actually does Box and Papers mean?....The "papers" part.
The warranty card, certificate and invoice/receipt from AD?
Premium
No way would I pay a 2k premium for original certificate. Save your money and get extract
That's a fantastic project
I also have the 5110R in my books for the future, even if I have 2 or 3 others I would like to get first down the road.
As for your question, I'm really not a vintage buying expert and would say that an Archive extract is perfect for old references (more "no papers" version sold than complete set).
On the other hand, if you're looking for a watch that is mostly available with papers, it can be an issue if considering selling it. Now everything depends on the price of course as long as the lesser value should be taken into account. Is 2K€ enough for a 5110? I can't help you more than that but needs discussing the matter with the dealer.
Do not heistate to post if you take the plunge!
Cheeers, Mark
As for your question, I'm really not a vintage buying expert and would say that an Archive extract is perfect for old references (more "no papers" version sold than complete set).
On the other hand, if you're looking for a watch that is mostly available with papers, it can be an issue if considering selling it. Now everything depends on the price of course as long as the lesser value should be taken into account. Is 2K€ enough for a 5110? I can't help you more than that but needs discussing the matter with the dealer.
Do not heistate to post if you take the plunge!
Cheeers, Mark
First of all, Archive paper
do not suggest that the watch would have visited Patek. All what this paper proves is that:
- the watch is minimum 5 years old
- the owner paid SFR 100 for the paper and sent photographs of the watch to Patek
- the Extract from Archives show the year of manufacturing, date of sale and the numbers of the movement & the case.
Certificate of Origin vs. Extract of Archives is a very personal issue. You do not need this documentation but the watch is much easier to sell if you have the original Certificate of Origin plus all other paperwork which came together with the watch.
I do not buy vintage Patek without Certificate of Origin. I also do not want that the name of the first buyer is in the document. For all watches I order the Archive paper when they are 5 years old. But that's just me and I do not claim that my way would be the correct one. Whenever it is possible, I am also buying a new watch.
Finally; many sellers say that the watch is a "complete set" and the Certificate of Origin is missing but there is the Extract of Archives. Such a set is not a complete set.
Best, Kari
This surprises me.
Other brands demand to see the watch before issuing Archival papers.
Extract of the Archives.
The only thing the paper proves is that in case the case and movement numbers match, those parts were produced by Patek.
Best
Kari
Best
Kari
Just got my PP Extract under 60 days from order date
Yes, I too was initially surprised that PP does not have you send the watch to a service center.
But then I thought about it and PP needs you to send pictures of the movement number and case number which means for vintage watches without display back, you have to open up the case. So they probably do not want to be responsible for opening the case if something happens. They would probably need to raise the price to cover potential liabilities.
So the only peace of mind the Extract gives will be that those numbers match to what is in their records along with the manufacture and sell dates.
It's better than nothing. I guess it proves you do not have a frankenwatch.
I also have the Certificate of Origin for my watch. But I though to get the Extract before Patek raises the price. $100 used up, cut back on a couple of steak dinners.
But then I thought about it and PP needs you to send pictures of the movement number and case number which means for vintage watches without display back, you have to open up the case. So they probably do not want to be responsible for opening the case if something happens. They would probably need to raise the price to cover potential liabilities.
So the only peace of mind the Extract gives will be that those numbers match to what is in their records along with the manufacture and sell dates.
It's better than nothing. I guess it proves you do not have a frankenwatch.
I also have the Certificate of Origin for my watch. But I though to get the Extract before Patek raises the price. $100 used up, cut back on a couple of steak dinners.
It is quite a new thing that Patek wants the movement pictures.
Some two years or so the numbers and tree pictures of the watch were enough.
I have the Certificate of Origin for all of my watches but always when the watch becomes five years old, I am ordering also the Extract of Archives.
You do not need the papers to enjoy the watch but an indisputable fact is that the market price for a "full set" is always higher than for a plain watch. Is that right or wrong, I do not know.
Best, Kari
The 5110 is not a vintage watch. It is 10 to 16 years old.
I would be concerned if it didn't come with its paper, the certificate of origin.
Does that mean that the first owner lost the paper? That the watch was stolen?
For a vintage watch, I have no problem to buy it without the certificate of origin. They most often come without, as, in 1950, 1960 or 1970, people were buying watch without getting the interest of keeping the paper ( or the box ).
For the peace of mind, I would go for a complete one.
I always favor peace of mind over pissed off mind.
Best,
Nicolas
Does that mean that the first owner lost the paper? That the watch was stolen?
For a vintage watch, I have no problem to buy it without the certificate of origin. They most often come without, as, in 1950, 1960 or 1970, people were buying watch without getting the interest of keeping the paper ( or the box ).
For the peace of mind, I would go for a complete one.
I always favor peace of mind over pissed off mind.
Best,
Nicolas
The COO is irreplaceable.
An extract from the archive is not the same as the original certificate of origin, and will always command a premium, all other things equal. How much of a premium is the question, and that's much harder to determine. You can compare prices with and without to get some idea, but then there's the intangibles...
When it comes to resale, know that there are some buyers that won't even consider a modern Patek without its original COO, and that limits your buyer pool. Also there's the emotional component. Since the original COO can never be replaced, how will this gnaw at you as years go by? True, it's just a piece of paper, but your watch will never be "complete" without it. If you can live with this, and are willing to accept a little more difficulty selling down the line, then by all means take advantage of the significant savings!
Right... but it is a 5110.
Not a 3448, or a 2526, or something that is extremely limited.... Its a modern watch, although a beautiful one, in 20-30 years i really don't think a Certificate will carry much if any premium.
If I understand your point correctly,
Then I think it's exactly the opposite. A vintage watch like the 2526 would not be expected to carry an original certificate of origin, and an archive would be generally acceptable. With a modern piece like the 5110 there really is a penalty for not retaining the original certificate. Watch collectors in 2016 require it, and the standard has been set going forward.
Agree, CoO stands above EoA.
The CoO is unique and will not be reproduced, the EoA can be purchased for a bit of money. But in the end, the decision should be mainly triggered by the watch (condition etc.) itself than by the paper.
I will always gladly pay a premium for a watch with the Certificate
not so much because of value or resale issues, simply because as a collector having a "complete" watch is far more satisfying to me.
But I should add, that more important is the condition of the watch. I would rather have a perfect watch with the Extract than a a noticeably lesser condition watch with the Certificate.
I would add one more qualifier. If a watch is supposed to have 2 backs I would prefer all other factors equal, a watch with both backs and an Extract than one missing a back but having the Certificate.
Best, patekova