ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331
I think you are confusing...
The market for watches, with the market for collectors, with the market for Rolex, with the Bizarro World variations of each of the above.
Hi,
Each of the markets I named, and others, overlap one another, more or less, but each is distinct enough that I would be very uncomfortable to make one a wholly included sub-set of any of the others.
The market for "serious" collectors is actually quite small vis a vis the overall watch market, as well as vis a vis the Rolex market (the part that is uniquely Rolex and not overlapping the collectors market or the tool watch market)
Thus, complications have little to no relevance to Rolex' current market size, share, or penetration and likely won't in the future.
Whether or not Rolex wants to EXPAND into other markets is anyone's guess (outside Rolex) and it could be successful, or it could be a disaster.
Should Xerox have made micro computers?
Lamborghini marine engines?
I'm a little concerned about the assumptions behind one of your statements - "outsourcing is not..."
Outsourcing is in fact a long established tradition in watchmaking, and I see two equally strong camps that today would argue it is less accepted today, and more accepted today.
In the past (pre-1990s and the advent of the internet) fewer people knew, and even fewer cared.
Cheers,
TM
Why does Rolex NOT DO IT?
Hi This is hopefully going to trigger some serious debate.... Rolex DOES NOT produce ; 1. Perpetual Calendars or EOTs 2. Annual Calendars 3. Watches with Retrograde displays 4.Regulators 5. Moon Phase displays 6. Alarm watches 7. Power reserves 8. World T...
Their business model doesn't seem to need it...
...and after all, they have been pretty successful throughout some pretty bad time in the watch industry. While I have some criticisms of Rolex, none of them are the same as yours, many of which seem more about horological trendiness than basic watchmakin...
In one word...
MENTALITY. Mentality of the people at the helm who are correctly undeterred by trends. By staying the course set forth by their founders, they stay within the culture emanating from figuratively, every inch of their manufacturing location. They feel safe ...
Also it means they can concentrate
on what they do and they do it good so maybe you could say they are not as daring as the other brands i have often asked the same question too it will be interesting to read everyones response.
If it ain't broke....
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. What they are doing is working. It has worked for many years. They have smart people there. I'm sure if they thought they needed to change their business model, they would do so. Right now they have the largest, most loyal...
Because they choose to make the most reliable and durable watches in the world
and they have succeed without any doubt, if they would make them more complicated they would not be that strong anymore
I think Because they aim to make watch....
thave true purpose in daily like , a true good looking and robust 'tool watch'. Less is more. It's like how Patek will keep to their traditional approach in their watchmaking. I find the approach of Rolex very respectable. I love the brand more and more e...
To each his own, Narsi
To JLC, VC, Patek and a few others a vast family of complications... To Rolex the fundamentals: Tool Watches which tell in any cirucmstances the Time. Rolex do what they know to do, and they excell in that. Besides, it's a sign of strength to follow your ...
An interesting question.....
rolex is not one of my top brands...... Mainly because they do not manufacture complications and they produce a lot of watches.... But..... They make extremely reliable watches, with probably the best waterproof resistance.... They do have a classic desig...
I think it's far too simplistic....
..To suggest Rolex do not make complications....making automatic waterproof chronometres in the mid '30's was complicated....so complicated it took many brands a quarter of the length of the history of the wristwatch to catch up. Which they eventually did...
I do not think.....
that most people would regard an automatic waterproof watch as a complication..... Complications cost more, so numbers of sales are relative..... As far as a "simplistic" is concerned, readers can judge by themselves..... ......
i suppose.....
.....Audemars and Patek teamed up with Jaeger and dragged Gerald into the plot cause the job of pulling off a slim auto waterproof watch was uncomplicated. Granted there was no moon phase in the plot but they can all do that individually. This message has...
are we...
comparing complications of today or of the 30s? As far as your facts, I would not describe them as simplistic as you did with my opinion but I would let this community judge them.... ........
Patek & Audemars...
...were not scratching thier heads in the '30's, they were doing that a full forty years later...perhaps because the complications of arriving at your own waterproof automatic design (that actually works/especially a thin one) had not got any easier.Were ...
As much respect as I have for AP, PP, and JLC...
What the heck does the development of the 920/2120 (and PP version) and the Royal Oak/Nautilus have to do with this discussion? "Highly water intrusion resistent" cases were no easy feat in the early mid 20th C. Comparing that to the development of reliab...
...
Comparing that to the development of reliable perpetuals or whatever "complication" of interest in this discussion, makes about as much sense as comparing the technology of sending someone to the moon and asking why it took till the 2000's for more than a...
Im sorry, Im not following.
Hi, Ms. Catherine, I suspect we are in closer agreement on the basic points than we might appear. Context is everything in communication. I agree highly water resistent (even this terminology is anachronistic - back "then" there no qualms about "water pro...
....
But honestly, comparing screw backs with appropriate seals; screw down crown LOCKS (the screw down crown itself was not intended to provide water reistence, just the correct compression and locking for the stem tube seals) with the engineering difficultie...
No you would not.
"Am I correct in thinking..." Catherine - No you are not correct in thinking that. Nowhere in any of my posts in this thread have I used "complication" to refer to case making because that is not colloquial and generally accepted usage of the term in the ...
Understanding context.......
....Nowhere in any of my posts in this thread have I used "complication" to refer to case making because that is not colloquial and generally accepted usage of the term in the field of watchmaking and to do so would add needless complication to the discus...
I think I have to give up this discussion...
Because, try as I might to "read through" the typos and turns of phrase (I'm typing on a BB so I can easily accept typos; so long as I can confidently "read through" them) I am having great difficulty following the point(s) you are trying to make. As a pa...
Thank heavens.....
1. In over 3 decades of actively collecting and following the industry, and talking to and interacting with various people in the industry from designers to case makers to dial makers, hands, movement components; directors and CEOs and PR spokespersons, e...
Focus on watches
Their main focus is just watches whereas many other manufacturers are primarily offering micromechanical works of art ;-). Heinrich
It's interesting that
a lot of the responses focus on the reliability of Rolex watch, which I do not doubt although I have never owned any Rolex. (Please no funny comment on that!) Having said that, I wonder if the marginal reliability over some other brands, would be enough t...
"Wouldn't you prefer Brand X..."...
..actually, "No" in my case. I am old enough to remember when mechanical watches were mere tools and for which there were no alternatives. To me, the goal of producing a reliable and accurate and timepieces consistently is the highest goal of watchmaking....
Point taken
I guess that's where it differs in terms of purpose of buying watches, at least between me & you. To me the different complications/finishing is a form of art, which I can almost related to, given my engineering background. And I consider that a priviledg...
Good point!
It's just that to me quartz seems 'too easy' and not very enterprising. I guess I'm from a mechanical age and appreciate things that are achieved mechanically. Funny though, my whole career has been in attending to the wants of digital electronic devices.
No Rolex??
You cannot expect us to let this go by......lol Besides Panerai used rolex in their watches....... Seriously though, why would you say that Rolex is marginally more reliable than other watch makers? Cheers
Well
I'm not exactly trying to 'quantify' that difference but I'm sure in your mind, there's a brand that's closely behind Rolex in terms of reliability right? And I'm willing to bet that particular brand probably produce a wee bit more interesting complicatio...
I take a "diversified" approach =)
Sure, Rolex produces one of the most consistent and reliable simple time telling machines in the world. Their focus on that, and not complications, allow them to excel in the accuracy, consistency and reliability departments over and over again. That's th...
There are some brands....
true... but I would say that one certain brand is at least as accurate as a rolex.... Besides mechanical are more accurate than automatic watches..... Having said that I do prefer complications.... but there is a time for all watches.... Cheers
Anyone can buy a complication from a complication design house.
And don't kid yourself, in most cases that is how manufacturers "design" their complications. To make a watch that is reliably the most accurate and durable mechanical watch in the world is much more difficult, and Rolex is the absolute owner of that dist...
I wonder...
how Swatch, Seiko, and Miyota feel about this statement - "To make a watch that is reliably the most accurate and durable mechanical watch in the world is much more difficult, and Rolex is the absolute owner of that distinction. " TM
I doubt that they care.
If they did, we'd see a lot more Breguet balance springs in their product offerings. Just my opinion, of course, but (with the possible exception of Omega's co-axial movements) they pretty much seem to have conceded the field to Rolex.
And you know I'm not a Rolex wearer.
I just really would like some of the other companies to step up to the plate and go all-out to make an accurate movement (maybe a fast-beat Richard Lange?).
I was referring to...
the ETA 2892, 2824, and various Seiko and Miyota "high grade" movements. Not "high grade" as in chi chi nice movement finishing wow that looks beautiful, but rather high grade as in reliable stable well adjusted I doubt Seiko, ETA/Swatch, or Miyota have c...
I have yet to run into anything legitimately competitive.
Obviously, I don't own all movements, but I have not run across anything that touches a Rolex under real world conditions. My criteria include not only accuracy over a short period but also rate stability over at least five years between services and the ...
I think you are short changing the...
Seikos from the 1960's and later. Hi, MKVC, I understand the theoretical points you are making (especially reinforced when you bring up 7750 and the Omega calibres) We might be talking different paradigms at this point. Anecdotally and based on personal S...
You're probably right, Thomas.
The fact is that I don't have experience with Seiko. Frankly, until I read your post, I never thought I had a reason to do so. However, if they get that strong a vote of confidence from you, I'm going to start checking them out.
I respect Seiko immensely.
Hi MKVC, There was a recent thread about Grand Seiko on HoMe; I won't repeat. In my experience, I've seen more running, accurate and reliable never serviced for 5/10/20 years Seikos than I have similarly used and neglected Rolex. New, I'd put any randomly...
LIKE IT.....
Rolex has a certain aura...and for me personally, i have never been a big fan. but every 2 years so so, when i tire of all the complications and "fashion" horological pieces that i have acquired, i go back to collecting what i think is basic goodness...ro...
They probably will. I wouldn't be surprised to learn . . .
. . . that they are working on something right now. I know nothing of course, just thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that in the past five years Rolex has dramatically increased the pace of change at their company, resulting in new movements and ...
curious if the question was rhetorical or sincere and literal?
Hi, Narsi, I'd love to read your own take on the question(s) you raised. Do you think they should, or are you asking why everyone else does, or are you asking why watch nuts have so much more money than sense? ;-)
By the way......
I think that Rolex did make a moonface and a calendar watch in the past.... Cheers
sure they did...
Like nearly every other Swiss brand, they bought Valjoux 72C movements, and other outsourced movements, and made "complications" before the 1970's. Since then, they made a deliberate decision to focus very narrowly. And they did this very successfully. Bu...
Again, Im not following you?
No, the ref. 8171 is not a Valjoux 72. Yes, the ref. 8171 is a moonphase triple date. Yes, the Val. 72, and other calibers from other movement houses, have been used by Rolex. Cheers, TM
My apologies Thomas.....
With you mentioning a calibre devoid of moon phase and never installed in the quoted ref i mistakenly confused your context. Still the least said about this spefic reference the better else it will somewhat void the whole thread by proving that Rolex coul...
My reply in this sub-thread was to Pink Panther, and
I don't see where (s)he ever made reference to a reference number? Aside - I seem to recall that there was a variant of the Val 72 that did offer moonphase indication. But that's neither here nor there... Again, I'm not following the rest of your comments...
In Michael e Porter's view
that is their competitive advantage and it is well protected by their tactics in branding, service and reliability. cheers PAt
They've charted their own course, and it works well for them.
I have no insight into Rolex's inner workings, so can only speculate, but I think they quietly put their money into R&D to improve their watches from the inside out. Watches like the Submariner can arguably be considered design icons. Say the words "expen...
Well put Daos.
Also, don't forget, the reason many of Rolex's pieces are considered iconic and have such a large following is that they RARELY changed for decades. Having a good and sensible design, and staying with it (making only minor tune-ups) undeterred by the tren...
Thanks, Jon.
Just calling it like I see it. The beauty of this hobby is that there is something for everyone. Hope you are keeping well. Cheers, Daos
Well Daos....
You do have a valid point..... However, personally, I would welcome an innovation from Rolex.... We admire for eg. JLC diving watches, why not something different form Rolex...maybe an alarm? Cheers
Sure
Would I be interested to see Rolex's take on an alarm or some other complication? Naturally. As a watch lover, it is always great to see something you've never seen before. However, I think Rolex will continue to find success regardless of whether they cr...
Dont' forget the issue of SERVICE
With so many watches sold every year, it will be a nightmare trying to service so many different complications and movements. It will be a major logistical issue trying to stock all the spare parts for so many different movements... Although I've had my R...
My views on the question that I raised...
Hi Having raised the question at the beginning of this thread, I was pondering as to how Rolex has been able to sustain its leadership position in volume and revenue terms. Frankly there isn't a single specific answer. To my mind I see the following attri...
You forgot one small matter Chin.......
Rolexes may have had great appeal to those born in the 60's 70s and 80s. Will they hold the same charm to the new breed of watch fans who look for much more in a watch than what Rolex can offer. ....Folk don't like loosing £'s and cashing-up a Rolex ...
I think you are confusing...
The market for watches, with the market for collectors, with the market for Rolex, with the Bizarro World variations of each of the above. Hi, Each of the markets I named, and others, overlap one another, more or less, but each is distinct enough that I w...
It's the market positioning
In my opinion, Rolex is marketed for the mass. That is not to say that Rolex is "cheap". It means that Rolex chose to position itself so that a large number of people will still be afford it's watches. It is a strategy positioning because the business mod...
Other watch manufacturers have a lot to learn
from Rolex, who have developed an elegant, honest and seemingly perpetual business model.
