Gary G
3734
The Movement Question -- Voutilainen Masterpiece Chronograph series
Greetings to all!
When I posted my retrospective on our journey with the KV Masterpiece Chrono II, ztirual posted a response that asked several pertinent questions:
"I should have asked Kari, but I did not because I was focusing on other watches, but would you mind telling a bit more about the caliber of your watch. Is it based on the same ébauche as Kari's 1st generation chronograph? Most of your post focused on the dial. Were the design of the dial somewhat restricted from the outset because of the choice of movement?
With the benefit of hindsight, would you go the same way for your next piece from Kari? 
Would knows, you might have already commissioned a new piece?
Would knows, you might have already commissioned a new piece? I mean, would you still give as many (or even more) directions to Kari. Having been there myself, with much more humble pieces, off course, I tend to think that having given a clear brief from the outset, now I would rather give the watchmaker complete freedom ie. carte blanche."
Apologies that it has taken me a while to put together this response, but I wanted to be as thorough as possible in constructing it, for reasons that will become apparent.
Having talked with several knowledgeable people on the topic and corresponded with friends who have consulted with experts, my conclusion is that the chronograph portion and main plate geometry of the Voutilainen Masterpiece movement are based on the key dimensions of certain Patek chronographs, which in turn were derived directly from the Valjoux 23 chronograph movement. Perhaps the best exposition on this topic comes from friend and fellow Purist Allen, who writes as follows:
"...I had an interesting time at the Patek boutique on Saturday discussing chronographs with the Patek vintage watch expert Xun Wang. Mr. Wang brought out a few Patek chronos (2 5170s and the 5204) and we were louping them along with our Kari Chronos.
I am 99% sure now that Kari based his chronograph design on the vintage Patek chronos (used in refs. 1579, 1463, 530 etc.)
This was when Patek bought the Valjoux 23 ebauche and modified them heavily for their chronos. Later, when the Valjoux movements dried up they started to use the Lemania movement and only recently launched their in house movement.
Here's the side by side comparison of Kari's chrono and the vintage Patek and the Valjoux 23 movements.
Kari restored a vintage Patek split seconds chronograph (there's a picture on his website) and I suspect that movement was his inspiration for our watches.
Mr. Wang spoke very highly about Kari's work and was admiring our watches quite a bit. He commented that he liked that Kari designed the seconds hands reset hammer under the bridge for safety, just like Patek did. He also commented on the beautifully done inside and outside beveling on the bridges and the lovely frosted finishing.
Feel free to post any pictures or comments. There are many out there that think that Kari used Valjoux 23 ebauches for our chronographs. From the side by side comparison picture you can see that the chronograph lever and bridges are closer to the Patek. All bridges and lever parts are similar but not able to be converted from existing Valjoux parts and have to be made."
The side by side comparison to which Allen referred is shown here (you can go to Kari's website to see the image of the restored PP split seconds):
The similarities in geometry are striking, and as Allen notes the KV movement does seem to take additional inspirations (e.g., the two small bridges at the bottom of the image) from the PP variation. In addition, all of these movements share an important visual characteristic that is evident from the outside of the watch: if you look at the pusher locations, you will see that they are asymmetric, with the return to zero pusher being farther from the crown than the start/stop pusher. My research suggests that this is a well-known tipoff that a Valjoux 23 (or variant) is living inside of the case.
However, could it still be that the underlying base of the movement is a Valjoux 23 ebauche? Allen knows about a zillion times more about timekeeping technology than I, but as I'm a suspicious sort I went back through my own photos taken during various visits with Kari as well as photos that Kari sent me during the process of building the watches. Here's what I found:
On the left hand side of the photo above you see (unless I am mistaken, which is always a possibility
) the main chrono bridge of the KV movement -- among other things you can see the circular groove that serves as the foundation for the column wheel. This looks to be a freshly-machined piece to me, with all of the marks of 21st-Century CAM on it. Let's move on to a view below of the parts tray for my movement (you can see the number 3 scribed on the shiny part of the main plate) and take a look at the main plate and the reverse of the main chrono bridge:
That complex, milled recess at the bottom of the main plate is for the mounting of the big date mechanism on the dial side of the watch. While I suppose that there is some chance that Kari might have taken a Valjoux 23 main plate and milled it, I think it unlikely. Some additional reinforcement for this point of view comes from the photo below, of a partially assembled movement as seen from the dial side:
At the top of the image we see the small bridge that holds the offset small running seconds mechanism of the KV Chrono. To my eye, at least, it looks to be made of the same metal and with the same randomly scratched surface of the underlying main plate. In addition, the main plate of this watch has several points at which screws, pins, etc. penetrate it in places other than in the Valjoux (or Patek) instances.
I also have photos of some of Kari's engineering drawings for the small seconds, main time display (lower left in the photo above), big date, and moon phase bridges (I have not included them here due to some confidentiality concerns I have about posting the detailed drawings). What I conclude from those drawings is that a) as noted above, the inclusion of all of these unique dial-side features requires lots of different things than required from a Valjoux 23 main plate; and b) the exact dimensions of the main plate and all of its carvings, drillings, and other features were stored safely in Kari's CAD system, meaning that basically all he had to do was to flip the switch to make those parts himself. There are also photos from Kari (I'll spare you) showing rows upon rows of what appear to be freshly-made gears, wheels, and levers of all sorts of varieties.
As I said above, however, I'm a suspicious type -- and none of my photos (or the ones that Kari sent) seem to include many of the smaller parts from the chrono side of the movement. So -- is it possible that at least some of these pieces came from the Valjoux parts bin? Well, my visual inspection tells me that many of the levers are differently-shaped than the Valjoux (or even Patek) versions -- and while to my uneducated eye it appears that the long, multi-hinged actuating lever for the start/stop and the column wheel might just be stock parts, Allen (who in real life is more than a bit of an expert on materials and micro-machining) tells us it ain't so. And, some of the levers that are involved with meshing the chrono with the running train (including that jeweled beauty on the bottom center of the movement photo) are clearly of Kari's own invention, even if in a way they remind us a bit of the Patek pieces.
Speaking of which, it is also absolutely apparent that the whole dial side construction (displaced hours and minutes subdial, small seconds subdial, big date, moon phase) is unique to this piece.
What I'm left to conclude is that the KV Chrono movement is manufactured in-house, but at the same time is based very strongly on the traditional geometry of the Valjoux 23 and its Patek variants. Is that a bad thing? I'll leave that to the reader -- for my part I can say that so far (fingers crossed!) the chrono elements of my watch are performing flawlessly, and the pusher feel is great (particularly the return to zero, which is splendid). To the extent that the chrono portion of this watch is not hugely innovative, I can certainly live with that -- for true movement innovation, we can look to Kari's Vingt-8, his work on the detent escapement for Urban Jurgensen, his unique piece tourbillon and decimal repeaters, or even to the dial side of this very watch.
Whew! A long screed -- if you're still with me, many thanks for reading this far. Perhaps it will be best for me to address ztirual's other queries (about the extent to which our design choices were constrained by the movement and whether in future I might opt to give a watchmaker complete carte blanche in creating the details of a "made to measure" piece) in a separate post...
Best,
Gary G
The Movement Question -- Voutilainen Masterpiece Chronograph series
Greetings to all! When I posted my retrosp ective on our journey with the KV Masterpiece Chrono II, ztirual posted a response that asked several pertinent questions: " I should have asked Kari, but I did not because I was focusing on other watches, but wo...
that was informative. What I know about chronograph...
Design could fit on a jewel. It appears Kari was inspired by those examples and folded them into his design.
Inspiration was pretty clear
...and I am right about where you are when it comes to technical knowledge! Thanks, Gary
Those kind of details are not for Mr & Mrs Smith ...
... and even the average watch-guy won't get it ... but for PuristS :-) Love it and appreciate it a lot. Thanks to you and Allen! Oliver
My pleasure, Oliver
As I am sure you could tell, all of the brain work was done by Allen! Best, Gary
thanks
Gary, Thanks for the detailed [post - I too was one of the guys who were always curious about the origin of the Kari movement, being a huge fan of its dial. Hopefully I'll get to see on in person someday here in NYC. Hope to see more macro photos of the m...
There is a fresh movement side photo
...in this week's Macro Monday thread on HoMe! Appreciate your comments -- I will keep posting photos as I am able to generate them... Best, Gary
Thank you for this research...
A great post Garry. This lets us look into the history a little, each evolution of a movement adds improvements, eliminates problems (hopefully). These thoughts turn up the light some of the problems on the present fashion for "new in-house" movments that...
Thanks for the kind comments, Don
To the extent that there are insights in there, the credit should largely go to Allen who did the initial investigation. I learned a fair amount about this Chrono and chronographs in general putting this piece together, so it was a great education for me....
Some small additional comments (long, sorry!)
Hi everyone, Great post and interesting read, many thanks indeed for your insights. Also congratulations on your watch! I would just like to add a little bit to the discussion: 1. If we go back in time to the beginnings of horological history, we will see...
Thanks for these very interesting thoughts
As a published author and copyright holder I do sometimes ponder what contemplates hommage vs. imitation -- but your comments do well to point out the long tradition of adaptation in the history of this particular industry. Thanks for taking the time to c...
Dear Gary,
Many thanks for your detailed and articulate reply to my inquiry. A very interesting nuanced analysis. I fully understand your preference for an in house movement and it surely seems to be the case here -not that Kari disappoints when he is working with o...
Direct inquiry
I didn't ask, but one member of our group did and provided the following report: " He said that he created his own chrono taking ideas from what he thinks are the best chrono calibres out there." I have satisfied myself thoroughly about the genesis of the...
Great Investigative Work
and for putting it comprehensively for the lay person (me). Thanks for the education. Reading Theodre's post, led me to think and wonder if MB&F ever decide on a Chrono. What innovations that would bring and perhaps advancement in design of such a mov...
Thanks, flamenco
As for the MB&F question, it's an interesting one -- if there is one thing that I have learned in the process of buying this watch, it is that chronographs are pretty difficult complications to make! One reason why so many companies use tried and true...
A few thoughts....
Hello, Gary, good post and interesting pictures ! When I saw one of (maybe even the first) the first finished Kari Chronograph, at least to my eyes it was more than obvious that it was based on the Valjoux 13'' family chronographs. Of course I asked Kari,...
Perhaps infinity is finite ;-) ?
Hi Suitbert, It is really great to have interesting discussions about movement design like this, ignited by Gary's wonderful story. Reminds of the old days at Purists when there would be heated discussions about the real or imagined value of wolf's teeth ...
To avoid any sort of misunderstanding....
Hi Theodore, I don't want to accuse or insinuate anything - I'm just trying to explain my personal view and feelings. Chronographe movements from the past happen to be a field of interest for me for some time - believe it or not, but somehow the manufactu...
Hi Suitbert
Hi Suitbert, Thanks for your response; I do think there are semantic questions here that are playing a role perhaps toward inadvertent misunderstandings. I certainly don't want to split hairs if it does not add anything to the discussion. If we leave watc...
Thanks to both Suitbert and Theodore
...for your well-considered and thoughtful contributions to this dialogue. Perhaps the "PuristS of old" is not so far away from us after all? Best regards, Gary
Gary, great detective work and summary
in conjunction with Allen et al. Your post gives me a new appreciation and understanding of historical chrono movements and this spectacular watch by Kari. I can see he had a wonderful inspiration for this movement, which is beautifully executed in its ow...
Concur in your thoughts here, tahoeblue
As one of our friends keeps telling us, the chrono is a very difficult complication to execute! Perhaps better to have the basis solidly built on traditional geometry than to get too adventurous. I also keep forgetting that the original conception of the ...
My pleasure, Frank!
Many thanks for taking the time to post here -- I really appreciate your comment! Best, Gary
Great Article ...
Gary, Your article here is really interesting. A great read, I enjoyed. Thanks for taking the time.
Glad you liked it
My intent was to create more light than heat -- I know that the topic of "inspired by" is one that arouses a lot of passions... Best, Gary
An absolute gem of a post!
Gary, You've got me thinking, which is no small ordeal. There is an interesting contrast between Kari's chronograph movement and, say, the Patek Philippe CH 29-535 PS or even the Omega 9300. We must remember that even a genius has only a finite amount of ...
Many thanks for the thoughtful comments -- and kind words
It does seem that modern software is enabling many non-traditional forms (e.g., the Ivresse as manufactured by David Candaux). It will be interesting to see what is next! This whole topic of whether it is good, bad, or indifferent to use the fixed points ...