patrick_y
[PuristSPro Moderator]
33542
Good question...
Auction houses are a necessity. Almost like a love/hate thing. Without them, prices cannot be established. The auction houses are a place where they provide the "big data" to the industry.
But, at the same time, that data itself is tainted at the source. The auction houses are always trying to get an edge, usually through exaggerated stories, exaggerating the importance of a piece to get more bids and higher bids, and some are downright inventing untrue stories.
What a way to leverage your auction house's reputation.
Here's the beauty of it... If a major auction house says something, even if it's not accurate, it becomes TRUE! Talk about having your cake and eating it too...
A potential Rolex fake discovered
Moderator, please let me know if anything is out of bounds and I will fix it. I think this is important news to share on PPro. Catching up on the weekend news (freezing temperatures has a way of ensuring you stay in bed all weekend long and ignore almost ...
Is it a surprise that a vintage Daytona has been doctored like this?
No. Not all. In fact, I think I may not be so far from the mark if i said that I think the number that have had "something" done to them was as high as the number that have not. So, for me, no real surprise that a watch surfaces that has been heavily fake...
And........ just how many of those PN’s are real? There is too much fakery in vintage Rolex
Thats why I stick to stuff that matches date with serial number and is not exotic Best Imran
i tell you....
.....i was once told by a very experienced vintage dealer that over 70% of PNs had been doctored to varying degrees.
it is anyone's guess....
.....for sure, it has been THE focus of the fraudster in vintage Rolex. No other reference has been subjected to this scale of doctoring. But even now, we are just guessing at numbers. Maybe its really low......10%...LoL. I think its comfortably over 50% ...
I’ve seen gilt explorer 1016 dials made into Submariner dials
I even got caught on one Bad lesson to learn 😞
No. It was 90% over 15 years ago, I have had a 6239 white and black 6241 black 6262 white and 6263 white PN
All bought between 1991 and 1997 ALL of them gad step dials, today we see so called non step 😳 Also look at Christie’s and Sotheby’s catalogue from the early 90’s for every one PN there were 9 non PN dialled Daytona Today you try and find a non PN Mad. ...
I’m begging for a good long post
from you moderators (Baron & Miranda & DrStrong if he is still active) who have this huge wealth of knowledge about vintage Rolex. It would be so much fun to read about how you’ve seen things change since the 1990s. I find the world of vintage Rolex fasci...
The thing with fake vintage Rolex,
Is that a big part of them was doctored back in the 80 and 90's! mainly by the Italians by the way. So today those pieces nor only present real patina but also their origin has been substantiated by being sold at several auctions and going through the han...
I agree the buyer bears responsibility for doing due diligence too
I buy primarily used watches and I always do the simple case number & movement number searches. But I think the firm that brings the watch to market and earns income from selling it, bears the primary responsibility to ensure that they are selling the gen...
I would be curious to know if such a story could have an impact on the next Phillips Rolex “Daytona Ultimatum” auction scheduled in spring
At least, I hope the Paul Newman’s Paul Newman sold recently is not a fake too 😉 Best wishes Alkiro
Haha can you imagine if Paul Newman’s PN was not real!?!?
🤯🤯🤯 I think it would be the only thing that halts the red hot vintage Rolex market. 😈
Hi Alkiro
I am wandering from the Patek forum. Can you please tell me what a “ doctored PN is please. I do not buy vintage Rolex but it would be good to know. Thank you CB
PN is for Paul Newman. A specific model from Rolex called like this after the actor Paul Newman wore one (you’ll easily find pictures on Google and a full story about that)
A doctored PN is a Paul Newman Rolex which has been modified (mainly the dia I guess) by a watchmaker or a firm and which does not correspond to the initial model made by Rolex anymore. For instance, you can modify few things on the dial to make somebody ...
Thank you Alkiro.
It is a nice watch. But to me, I like newer pieces with improved technology. I did not know Paul Newman was into watches. Cool forum over here at the Rolex sub forum. Lots of nice pics. I must continue to wander and learn. Thanks again CB
Thank you...very instructive
So we cannot trust the best auction houses and I have read on internet horror stories on second hand dealers. So what to do if the adage « buy the seller first « is no more true ? Only way : buy directly from a collector but you have to be introduced
Good question
if you still love vintage watches and want to buy them, what do you do? I still love used watches, whether vintage or recent 1990s/2000s ones. For me, I will look for full set and match up the numbers when possible. And most likely stick to buying referen...
Fake Rolexes and Emperor’s new clothes 😂🤣
That’s what I feel about there vintage Rolex craze... many people just admire them “blindly” but as I always admit, I’m ignorant and don’t spend a lot of time on them. If I were to buy a vintage or “previously loved” watch, it probably will be a PP or ALS...
it is without doubt a minefield.....
......but important no to tar everything. There are plenty of vintage Rolex that are exquisite and incredibly attractive. It is a minefield, yes, but if navigated properly, with knowledge and understanding, can be fabulous. But it requires work and resear...
Totally agree but even in this case...
Conventional wisdom “Buying the seller” doesn’t work, sad. There’s always hope, I know, I try to walk the middle path...just not vintage world of watches, unless I personally know that seller. I focus to buy the next and future vintage now, in the modern ...
in this case....
.....the buyer didn't know the seller, he just trusted the seller's agent. Raymond, you know you can buy whatever you like so long as it makes you happy. I guess what I am saying is it is important not to tarnish an entire genre just because it isn't your...
No, it’s just me so I emphasized again...
I’m not tarnishing the whole vintage thingy. There are treasures to be discovered for sure. Yes, it’s free will and each takes his/her own risk and responsibilities exploring our own interests.
My suggestion for the benefit of all readers
is that you add into your article the words “in my opinion” at several places, so the “facts” as we think we know them, and “opinions” as you have them stated them, are clearly separated. I would rather you as the author do this than one of us, as moderat...
Joe, I agree that in this case our expectation is that both Phillips and Hodinkee should have done more.
However like others have said without doubt the onus is on the buyer here to do their homework. Your point that a Phillips auction may have 200 lots and surely they have the resources to at the very least run some checks on case numbers is a fair one BUT ...
I agree the buyer should always do the due diligence
I don’t think we’ll find out the identity of the buyer. It would be compelling to know if the buyer is a newbie collector who was depending on Phillips reputation (i.e. someone jumping on the Rolex Daytona fashion trend) or a seasoned collector who couldn...
To put it bluntly..
Similar to money laundering This may be the case of vintage watch laundering through the following: Placement -> Layering -> Integration While taking advantage of the hype, vulnerability, ignorance, greed, fame surrounding the vintage watch market / indus...
You're onto something there...
That's pretty much what's going on. There's a lot of incorrect information, misinformation, a lot of marketing and made-up stories... All being gobbled by a large client base that's eager to build a vintage Rolex collection. Furthermore, a lot of these wa...
I'll try to give a politically correct response, but this will be difficult...
But all I can say is that auctioneers and journalists are all human beings. Human beings make mistakes, exaggerate, and push their own agenda. Human beings can also be inherently lazy and are prone to make mistakes out of carelessness and negligence. Cave...
It is sad & maddening to think about the dark ugly underside of the business
Who can we really trust in the vintage world? I understand more and more why some guys only buy new and directly from the manufacturer or AD.
Good question...
Auction houses are a necessity. Almost like a love/hate thing. Without them, prices cannot be established. The auction houses are a place where they provide the "big data" to the industry. But, at the same time, that data itself is tainted at the source. ...