Patek Philippe

And I thought I knew this reference like nobody else LOL serious in doubt here please look ar the numbers 8 and 10 ... Won't say more, waiting for your thoughts but to me they look VERY strange I know the sundial is damaged but that doesn't matter, look a...  

I don't get it, it's just a bad fake isn't it? A 5070J have applied index, so... cheers François

I'll say they strangely "step" inside the subdial and they are painted and not applied? I'm curious to learn a bit more from that watch Bruno. Cheers, Mark

indeed, these numbers look painted the rest of the case, movement look pretty good I mean, I have not seen a fake lemania that looked so 'original' So I was in doubt, did the very, very first had a different dial ? a painted dial ? Those painted numbers w...  

as I don't know every versions of the 5070 and if there could be a kind of early production of non applied numerals (even if I had great doubts about that). The movement looks the same shape but the finishing work on the levers is very poor (no chamfered ... 

and the sign represented is a weight to be turn!!!!! Very strange IMHO. With numbers, you could contact PP salon and ask them to check if all is correct. Patrickh

in the red circles and a picture from google imo VERY strange some parts are different ( NR 1) screws at nr 3 are very different and missing screws at nr 5 ruby and gold chitin at NR 4 looks smaller So strange .... but much better than any fake I have see...  

integrated in a 5070J case. To be confirmed by PP.

this original model. Just for thoughts. Cheers, Patrickh ...  

feuille hands are correct but those in the sundials are different

To me it looks like a fake. The movement is not finished to Geneva seal standards. It is scary nonetheless.

I took the liberty to use your picture for demonstration, hope you do not mind. it seems to be a faked standard Lemania: 1) is showing a lever that is not a Patek construction and still the original Lemania lever 2) is a very raw, unfinished cap and screw...  

I just uploaded a similar picture with 5 red 'remarks' :-) I'm sure many ould buy this a a genuine A friend of me asked me to 'investigate' this piece and I told him I would not take it because of the painted numbers, less finished movement, and some stra... 

Titanium white was not invented when the the old masters lived. This one is quite simple to see through if you know about watches a bit. BUT: still somehow a good copy :-)! Thanks for this case. Best Moritz

the movement parts are clearly not as refined as a real PP upon closer inspection and comparing to the official pics.

some 'spare parts' somehow sourced from the manufacture? I mean, parts before they were finished to PP standards, and them fixed with some stock Lemania parts? The balance cock for example looks authentic PP to me. Scary, indeed. Perhaps a PP apprentice t... 

However, I am buying all of my Pateks from a Salon and with vintage pieces I'm more than careful plus let the manufacturer to check them. I paid my price last year... Best, Kari

Can you share your story so forum readers can learn from your experience? I would certainly like to know which piece you purchased by mistake. It is very disconcerting that an experienced Patek collector like yourself can be deceived!

the story is not very sexy. First of all, most of my Patek Philippe is bought new and I buy all the new pieces from a Patek Philippe Salon or AD. I know, no rebates but also no worries plus I'm getting outstanding service. I have some vintage pieces. I do... 

Thank you for the insight...it is a shame on the dealer to use the Patek sealed bag as a recognition that the watch is in mint/NOS condition. To a beginner, the sealed watch may look that way...but little do they know is was not serviced by Patek. I think... 

I agreed with Patek that I present the watch sealed but open the bag in the shop of the seller. That's what I did. So the seller did not get a "sealed" watch. Best, Kari

Thank you for the clarification...you did the right thing!

Hi Bruno, of course tha's a fake - and IMHO not a "scary" one at all. Although somebody at least tried to forge the original, this attempt isn't showing "quality" at all. Most of the give aways are already pointed at, but the lack of quality alone should ... 

And a thread about finishing can be interesting and useful. I think that Nicolas planned to write something about finishing quality someday. Thanks for your interesting input Suitbert. Cheers, Mark

on his website the dealer posted smaller pics Look at them, I don't think you have any reason to be suspicious when seeing these pictures they look good Like said, a good friend ( even 2 of them) were interested in this watch and they asked me if I could ...  

This truly reminds me why it's important to actually study your hobby. I'm going to make sure to "hit the books" and learn the intricacies of the manufacturing techniques. As you mentioned right off the bat, the non-appliqué numerals are an immediate red ... 

if the movement and dial were fake I see now reason why the case would be real I don't know if it was genuine gold but if you could sell it at 50k you can use real gold

I'm sure some parts were get replaced with the original parts from lemania, with no more high end finishing from patek. So it's "quite original", but it's not fully original anymore

On the dial it says "Patek Philippe". If the watch was entirely made by then, it is real. If not, it's a fake. Simple. Best, Kari

first of all, I hope you didn't take me wrong, I didn't want to offend or seem arrogant, that's certainly not my intention! Back to the watch and the pictures - the ones shown by the seller..... I know that I'm looking differently at pictures like this an... 

IMO, the missing case hallmarks on lugs can easily been explained by seller as having been polished off not necessarily deeming it a fake watch

Hi, the hallmarks of this more recent cases, with PPC0. and purity grade (in this case should be "750") on lugs underside - those are really not shallow, rather deep and a normal case polish will not change a lot. If a seller would tell me this sort of ex... 

freaked the hell out of me,I am visiting from now on AD and salons ONLY. The problem is they make you wait for again better than a fake watch Regards, Ahmed

By this rule many of the Pursits here should be doing well with watches :-). Best Moritz

I'll step forward on this, since i am one of the friends who asked Bruno to check this watch !! I was ready to part on holiday and in lack of time Bruno suggested me to take a look at this 5070J in which I was interested , boy oh boy I nearly fell of my c... 

but the actual watch in person can be different all together and a fake! Must be very careful and buy the seller!

Surrounding the world of fakes. Your friends had a very narrow escape. This thread has reminded me more than ever NOT to believe what you see. And of course to "Buy the seller" and were possible from ideally an AD/Salon or if not from a reliable source.