F.P. Journe

Hi Journe lovers (I know there are a few of you),

 

Can I ask that eternal question about which Tourbillon Souveraine you prefer and why? The original Remontoir (Cal. 1498; 1999-2003) or the Dead Seconds (Cal. 1403; 2004-current)?

 

Fortunately there are no right or wrong answers, and we are blessed to have two superb and quite different designs.

 

Andrew

There's no place like HoMe!

 

 

The Original Tourbillon (Remontoir d’Egalité)

 

The Dead Second Tourbillon (Remontoir d’Egalité avec Seconde Morte)

Image credits: Paul Boutros

I think they're both gorgeous, and I'd love to have either in my collection (day dreaming)...

But if you ask me to pick just one Andrew, I'd go for the Dead Seconds, purely for aesthetic reasons. I like the way all 3 subdials have a symmetric Journe frame (what do they call that?!) around them.

The original one looks like a cross between Journe and Breguet - well in terms of a tourbillon that's not a bad idea either, but I prefer dials that are consistent.

The rose gold movement is another bonus for the DS.

Thanks Sidney,

 

There are many differences between these watches, but the symmetry of the Dead Seconds versus the asymmetry of the Original Remontoir is an obvious and important distinction. I think some people are drawn to symmetrical dials more than others. I generally like it to, but there is a certain ‘tension’ in the dial of the original tourbillon in the placement and size of the various apertures that keeps the interest of the eye.

 

The Dead Seconds face also looks a lot ‘neater’ (or perhaps ‘cleaner’) to me; a more ‘grown up’ and formal design. We can talk more about this when a few others have responded.

 

And the RG plates are rich and lovely, but I particularly like the aperture that gives a better view of the functioning of the remontoir.

 

Regards

 

Andrew

If those are version 1 (remontoir) and version 2 (dead seconds) you forgot the nearly-mythical version 0:

I actually prefer version 1 to 2 or 0, but that is only because the dial of ver.0 reminds me too much of the Breguet La Tradition, a problem not seen when it was first released!

A

... the Breguet would be booted out the door as soon as 'Version 0' arrived. I am usually more faithful than that, but there are limits! There is an industrial rawness in that piece that is palpable. And combined with the subsequent history of the company, it is a very significant piece indeed.

And I was hoping no one would post the 'prototype' tourbillon as I had given up torturing myself years ago!

Not talking to you now.

A

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Hi Arthur,

I did a post with all the collected images of the prototypes in the Journe Forum last year, but it is locked away. So here are just a few from an old HoMe thread. Click here.

A

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... the prototype tourbillon with remontior that F.P.Journe built in 1991. Others may have more information, but I am unaware that the exact number built has even been 'published'. Legend has it that there was little interest initially, but Mr Journe persevered and refined the design and it was the Tourbillon Souveraine with Remontoir d’Egalité that launched the company "F.P.Journe" at Basel in 1999. There was an initial souscription of 20 numbered pieces of this watch. The rest, as they say, is history...

Andrew

was 3, but I don't remember the source.  I also don't know if that is 3, including the one kept by M. Journe, or 3 and his, making 4 in total

A

it has the same hands and similar engine work to the dial on the Breguet

A

I like platinum and I like the dead seconds.

This is one of the very few tourbillons I like with the tourbillon visible from the watch dial. I normally only like tourbillons with hidden tourbillons.

I would like a FP Journe Tourbillon watch that:

1) Does not have loose mainplate screws when brand new from the 'factory'.

2) Has a non-oxidising dial.

3) Works!

All being said, they still look good as small metal sculptures.

 

Regards,

MTF

in your opinion, IF one can claim/believe/expereince FPJ watches as unreliable, even shoddy work(guys i said if and added lotsa of cavaets), would you agree that amongst all his complications, the tourby is most reliable, or put it the other way, the tourby has the least problems and technical issues?

best,

Horo

have the 'least' problems.....at least, in my limited personal experience. 

Hey! The Titanic had a flawed history but was still a great technical and aesthetic advance in the nautical world ................

 

I repeat:    FP Journe watches are great to look at....they are beautiful! 

Mrs MTF will not part with hers and I will still look at my remaining pieces with fondness.  We are 'fans'!  Honest, pragmatic but still fans.

 

Regards,

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-01-07 09:45:31

Hi Melvyn,

I wish I knew where the truth lay in all this. As you know, I like F.P.Journe time pieces and for years I have read all I could and asked questions of owners whenever the opportunity arose. My impression is that there were several specific problems with certain models that Journe worked hard to remedy. Sometimes this took a while, as with the Zodiac. And the factory communicated well with clients. The oxidized dials were from an early batch. There is a stabilization treatment available if required. If you have an early dial and it hasn't oxidized, then it is not going to now. [As an aside, I wonder if in 40 years these early dials will be as desirable as some patinated, chocolate, spiderwebbed Rolex or Omega dials.] Loose screws clearly indicate lack of attention to detail and quality control, but yours is the only anecdote I have heard on this point. How did the Factory respond and address this issue? Have you heard of this problem from other owners?

Pleasingly I have never heard a specific complaint about communication and I must say that my own Octa RdM is in for service (it's 8 years old and in need of one, but the bearings in the automatic rotor have also worn out, a recognised weakness in the original Cal. 1300 and improved in subsequent iterations) and the Factory has been superb in letting me know what was required, how long it would take, and how my watch was progressing through the service steps. Even to the point of giving me an expected return date 2 months in advance. This is far better than my 'black hole' experience of sending watches to JLC and Breguet.

In relation to Hororgasm's question, my impression is that the Tourbillon Souveraine movement is pretty well sorted, as is the Resonance, after a very long development period. There were very few changes required to the movement when it changed from the Cal. 1498 to the 1403, and there have been no changes to the 1403 in the last 7 years.

It is an impossibility to expect companies to provide specific data on service requirements. I have heard it estimated that the Journe service centre has a couple of hundred watches in service at any one time, and that would represent about 2% of watches delivered. Given routine service requirements after 3-5 years, that sounds like an acceptable number of watches to me.

I will report back on my specific service experiences with the RdM when it is complete.

Regards

Andrew

I am working on a deal now, will revert.

As for servicing, mine went back to fix the date disc issue via the AD, so I have no contact with FPJ servicing section. After collecting the watch, I did however need to go to their website and register, and they did extend my warranty for one extra year, kudos to FOJ for tht.

Best, Horo

you seem to really not like FP Journe....

Did you have a bad experience?

Thanks

Cheers

We were 'blinded by love' and did not complaint in public for years.......

 

The current Mrs MTF and I had almost every model below the Grand et Petit Sonnerie.

With the exception of one watch, all of them needed to go back to the factory with the usual problems:

Date not changing at 31st of the month.

Chronograph seconds hand not centering to zero from new. (Did not stop me buying it).

Oxidised dial and flaky varnish. (2nd replacement dial. Did not stop me buying it with the 1st  bad dial that was sent back to factory for a replacement BEFORE  delivery)

Loose mainplate screw from new.

"Attitude" from principal and staff: "Do you ride big-engined motorcycles to cause the screws to come loose?"

 

I still say the watches are completely beautiful as micro-sculptures. All sold off except three 'iconic' models. All sold watches were repaired by factory before selling on.......the PuristS thing to do

 

Regards,

MTF

 

 

You are definitely the right person for some of these questions. May I ask if the servicing is expensive in your opinion, relative to the complications involved and to other brands?

Best, Horo

on the specific price of after sales service.  Its all relative:

A $150k watch costing $2k to service may be "reasonable" but a $3000 Rolex costing $300 to service may be a lower absolute cost but higher proportion of the sales price.

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-01-07 08:06:39

do you wear these three?



Cheers

Dead Seconds....

I prefer the symmetry....

I also prefer hidden tourbillons, but this one, which I have seen in metal,
is stunning....

Cheers

and I feel it's the best journe tourby for me

It is pure.

Regards

Ling

 

i was just discussing this with a good friend on tuesday!! i have seen and felt v2 in the flesh, but not v1.

v0 - horological historic significance, but i am not a mature enough collector to appreciate it.

v1 - brass movement? arguably more collectable...but relative to the v2 aka DS, its finishing is not as good. was told platinum out number RG versions 4-1

v2 - most available. plus added DS. very balance. my preferred.

if there is any Journe that will get my journe juces flowing again, after the disastrous octa reserve, this is it!!

 

Best,

Horo

 

 

... is to make sure you give the Manufacture the opportunity to remedy the Octa RdM date problem. Only then can you put the demons to rest! I assume you can send it in through a local AD in Singapore? I had to hop a plane all the way to the HK Boutique for mine! I'll even pay the taxi fair to the dealer for you! LOL

I agree that there is a limited number of brass movement tourbillons around. Perhaps 50 a year for 5 years?? And very few in RG, but they are not selling at a premium yet, so that rarity hasn't been factored in to the marketplace.

Regarding finishing, the examples I have seen across 9 years definitely indicate to me an improvement in finishing, anglage, etc. I would be interested in others experiences here. But if finishing is important then, the advise that is often given when buying a Porsche 911 applies - buy the most recent one you can afford. [unfortunately when I was a student all I could afford was a 30 year old 2litre, but it was the first of the 911's and I loved it]

I might tell you at the conclusion of this thread which is my preferred Tourbillon and why, but for the moment I will say that your DS is a great choice.

Thanks for the comments.

Andrew