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Cartier

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Comments:

Guilloche dials

 
 By: cgreen : November 17th, 2013-07:44
Morning all,

Hope you're enjoying a great weekend.  I'm turning to the forum for a bit of help in the vintage world.  I'd like to know when Cartier started using guilloche on their dials and whether it was done in-house or supplied to them by a dial manufacturer.  Were there different dial manufacturers that delivered perhaps better quality dials, hand done guilloche?   

This has come about because I'm interested in buying a '40s - '60s vintage piece and am doing a bit of research.  

I'd very much like to find a Tank and/or Tonneau in platinum with guilloche dial, Breguet hands and a Jaeger or AP movement.  Does such a thing exist?  And if so does anyone know a ref number(s) and better yet does anyone have photos they can share?  

Also, I know that the European Watch and Clock Company was supplying movements but I've recently seen a movement in an auction catalog written as International Watch and Clock Co.  Is this perhaps a mistake or is this another company?

To that end, why are EWC movements so sought after by collectors?  Are they robust calibers or just something that is part of Cartier's history and thus desirable from a standpoint outside of their technical soundness?

Finally, I saw a platinum Tank from the '40s but it comes with a deployant clasp in pink and white gold...could this be original?  When would Cartier have begun using such a clasp system?  

Whatever you all can tell me is terrific, thanks very much for your help, I'm looking forward to hearing from everyone.  Have a terrific day, speak soon.

Yours,

Chris
 
 
PHOTO ADDED by Editor for dial illustration
 





This message has been edited by MTF on 2013-11-22 02:02:22

Too many questions about Cartier, you have

 
 By: MTF : November 18th, 2013-16:06
cgreen,
You have too many questions for any one person to answer.

When did Cartier start using guilloche on their dials and whether it was done in-house or supplied to them by a dial manufacturer.

Guilloche predates watchmaking and wristwatches have been around for a century but  mechanised guilloche rose to  prominence during Victorian times.

Were there different dial manufacturers that delivered perhaps better quality dials, hand done guilloche?

Yes. Cartier had the wherewithal to afford the best. The hand turned and motor turned rose engines produced much the same results.


Tank and/or Tonneau in platinum with guilloche dial, Breguet hands and a Jaeger or AP movement.  Does such a thing exist?  And if so does anyone know a ref number(s) and better yet does anyone have photos they can share?  

Platinum cases are rare because they are literally hard to make, hard metal.

AP movements are unlikely in Cartier watches although there may some reasons why  they may be mentioned. The Vacheron Constantin 1120 , Audemars Piguet 2120, Patek Philippe 28-255, and Jaeger-LeCoultre 920 are all the same base movement,
Jaeger-LeCoultre has never finished or used the 920 movement in JLC watches.  When AP sold its shares in JLC, it retained the ownership and rights to manufacture the JLC cal.920.

European Watch and Clock Company was supplying movements but I've recently seen a movement in an auction catalog written as International Watch and Clock Co.  Is this perhaps a mistake or is this another company?

Different companies. EWC was formed to supply movements to Cartier New York. USA tax laws put heavy import tax on European whole watches, especially 18K gold cases. Imported European movements had low tax and Cartier watches encased in USA, especially 14K cases had low taxation.

To that end, why are EWC movements so sought after by collectors?  Are they robust calibers or just something that is part of Cartier's history and thus desirable from a standpoint outside of their technical soundness?

The latter seems plausible.

Finally, I saw a platinum Tank from the '40s but it comes with a deployant clasp in pink and white gold...could this be original?  When would Cartier have begun using such a clasp system? 

Unknown when it started but platinum has characteristics not suited for deployant clasp: too hard and not elastic enough?

Regards,
MTF



This message has been edited by MTF on 2013-11-19 01:27:10

Wow! Thank you!

 
 By: cgreen : November 19th, 2013-18:36
MTF,

Thank you very much for your response, this information is tremendously helpful.  I've emailed Cartier NA to inquire about this particular piece and will get back to you with the results.  The movement and inside case back are signed EWC.  I knew they made movements but I wasn't aware they made cases as well.  We'll see what Cartier has to say.  Meantime, thank you again, I do sincerely appreciate your time. Take good care.

Yours,

Chris

Clarification about EWC

 
 By: MTF : November 19th, 2013-20:14

cgreen,

 

Just to clarify.

The original EWC made movements for Cartier for export. I believe Cartier New York encased themselves to avoid tax on fully assembled watches imported into USA. I've seen watches in UK also marked EWC movement but I'm not sure if Cartier London encased them.

The import tax on 18K gold watches was also devastating so many US watches had 14K cases. Obviously, for Cartier buyers, this 2nd tax dodge was not an issue....  wink

 

Remember that by 3rd generation, Cartier was split up amongst cousins and run as three separate entities in Paris, NYC and London....albeit with some mysterious "Cartier spirit" that was not evident within the family then.  Vendome Group (later Richemont) bought back piecemeal and reunited under one entity recently.

 

Also recently, another company called ECW European Company Watch has been producing cheap steel watches of enormous proportions, following the BIG trend set by Panerai and Audemars Piguet . Don't confuse them with EWC.

 

Regards,

MTF

Thank you again/Louis Cartier

 
 By: cgreen : November 20th, 2013-06:18
Thank you again MTF, great information.  

I read that once Louis Cartier passed away in the early 1940s the company sort of took a turn, (that his artistic vision was what really drove the company forward) is that true?  In looking to acquire a vintage Cartier am I better off sticking with a piece from the 1920s or would the '40s still be a safe bet?  I understand that mechanically they won't compare to today's accuracy, I'm fine with that.

I'm interested in acquiring a piece with good Cartier DNA from a period of time when it truly was an exquisite jewelry house.  Any further information you have is most appreciated, thanks very much.  Looking forward to hearing from you again.

Yours,

Chris  

Rumours and Hear-say

 
 By: MTF : November 20th, 2013-06:39

cgreen,

 

The heart wants what the heart wants.......

I cannot advice on the aesthetic choice between 1920s and 1940s vintage Cartier watches.

My comment would be about condition, spare parts and remnant authenticity.  As watches get older, all three of those items dwindle.

Unless you are already an established collector of Cartier pieces, I wonder if a contemporary model may serve better as an introduction to the brand?

 

 








Louis Cartier was certainly a rare force:  possessing both artistry and business acumen.

 

Actually, through the late part of his stewardship and after his death, the designer and keeper of the Cartier spirit touching all three branches in Paris, London and New York was a special lady based in Paris.......

 

Regards,

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2013-11-20 06:51:35

Newer vs older

 
 By: cgreen : November 20th, 2013-06:47
I do appreciate that parts are becoming harder to come by with the very old pieces.  I was recently advised of the same problem by the folks at Patek when inquiring about a 1960s piece.  

Just the same, I've always liked the older pieces and would like to pursue one.  It won't be a daily wearer but I'd like to own just a little piece of the history in spite of the potential challenges down the road.  

I'm quite intrigued by this woman in the Paris store who kept the spirit and creativity alive after Louis' passing.  Who is she?  Forgive me if this is something I should already know, I'm researching Cartier now and am not yet versed in the details.  Again, your continued thoughts are most appreciated.  Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Yours,

Chris 

That's for a future contest or pub quiz (nt)

 
 By: MTF : November 20th, 2013-06:52

wink

What about the Santos?

 
 By: cgreen : November 21st, 2013-19:23
MTF,

Thanks again for all of your assistance with everything, I sincerely appreciate it.  I have a question about the Santos Dumont, particularly the limited edition piece in platinum from 1994.  Who would have made that movement?  Forgetting the limited edition aspect, are Cartiers from that time period of good quality, as compared to earlier craftsmanship and now present day models?

Any wristshots of this piece would also be most appreciated, thanks much.  Take care.  

Yours,

Chris 

90th Anniversary Cartier Santos-Dumont platinum

 
 By: MTF : November 22nd, 2013-02:14

cgreen,

 

A nice set of photos of the 90th Anniversary Cartier Santos-Dumont watch was posted by 'VPRegulator'

CLICK URL link to be transported:

cartier.watchprosite.com =

 

 


1994: 90th Anniversary Cartier Santos-Dumont Platinum Handwind watch

Probably the 430MC movement derived from Piaget 430P. Check if it was a Piaget movement: if so, its the best in the business as an ultra-thin movement of renown provenance and reliability.

 

 

History of Cartier Santos-Dumont watch series

1904: Private piece unique wristwatch for Mr Santos-Dumont

1911: Official commercial launch Santos de Cartier watch.

1978: Creation of the Santos de Cartier watch with a gold and steel bracelet

1994: 90th Anniversary Santos-Dumont Platinum limited edition watch.

2004: 100th Anniversary Santos de Cartier watch, Santos 100, Santos Demoiselle and Santos-Dumont watches.

2009: Santos 100 Skeleton watch.

 


Regards,

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2013-11-22 02:16:10

Piguet

 
 By: Dje : January 8th, 2019-11:46
Hi Melvyn
The ultra thin Santos was fitted with a Frederic Piguet caliber 21. As good as a Piaget 430, and used by Patek in their ultra thin watches.
Best regards.

Omega supplied a deployant clasp with . . .

 
 By: Dr No : November 25th, 2013-10:35
. . . at least some of their Marine waterproof models in the '30s, so it's not unlikely for Cartier to offer the same a decade later.  Granted, such clasps would be very uncommon, but the possibility exists.

Cordially,

Art

1910

 
 By: Dje : January 26th, 2019-15:25
Hi Art,
Cartier invented the deployant clasp in 1910.
Best regards
Dje

So good to hear from you, Dje!! . . .

 
 By: Dr No : January 26th, 2019-23:15
. . . and thanks for the update - I've seen Omega Marine deployants from the '30s, but nothing earlier.

Warmest,

Art