Comments:
Rolex Submariner 5513 Marine Nationale.
A rare bird, issued in small batches during certain years ( 1968/1969/1970/1973 and maybe one or two years more... )
This one is from II 1967, with a matching case number, 200 meters first, as it should be.
A true character.
With another 5513 MN 70 from 1967 too:
Someone pasted the Nr 25 MN 70 too, some years ago, here.
Best,
Nicolas
Nice 5513!
Very nice 5513 “marine nationale”, wasn’t aware that MN was buying such 5513 - remember seeing the Tudor snowflake for the “marine nationale” but never these. Thanks for sharing these beauties!
Beautiful!
I'm quite intrigued by the rather whitish markers on the dial. I'm seriously looking for something like that for my 5513.
Watches that have often been the subject of damning investigations...
For years... some people/collectors have argued, using various arguments that I personally find questionable, that there had never been a Rolex 5513 in the French Navy... and even less so in Brest... before concluding that they were fakes made by a Parisian dealer...
Admittedly, some dealers have unusual (not to say f…) practices... even in Paris... I have witnessed this myself...
However, a body of evidence suggests that the theory of fake watches is wrong.
First… back in 1994, these watches, at a government auction, these watches probably cost like 2000-2500 Francs.
So there was no real incentive to fake them…
Then… a less 3 owners were talk separately that the watches were sold by Rolex to Rolex France then to Brest city Ad… a same story seen separately on different forums…
On this point… all the Brest AD were lost which led some people to say that this AD was mentioned because it no longer had any archives...
But… Zaf Basha… Who is anything but a novice when it comes to military watches... recently published a document discussing the city of Brest, years after the controversy...
Credit: classicwatchdc
Credit: classicwatchdc
Credit: classicwatchdc
This document, issued by the Brest tax office, which is responsible for collecting funds when the "Domaines" (the government department responsible for selling property belonging to France when it is no longer useful to the country) sell something, expressly mentions Rolex and Tudor watches...
In this regard, we had previously hypothesized that these watches may have been ordered by an officers' mess rather than by the French Navy.
With this document, it is indisputable that Rolex and Tudor watches used by the French Navy in Brest did exist.
I am referring here to the navy as an institution and not to an initiative by its members who may have made a group purchase before having the watches engraved for their personal pleasure or to celebrate an event.
The explanation is : the « Domaines » could not sell private items…
Moreover… the different batches have the same engraving… and close serial numbers…
If a similar engraving could have be done by an indelicate watch dealer… close matching numbers are difficult to falsify…
Finally, as is often the case with vintage and military watches, provenance is important... However, regarding several examples... I have read that these watches were acquired directly—with supporting documentation—from a person well known for having purchased huge quantities of watches from the French Navy.
Admittedly, there is currently no irrefutable evidence that this or that watch was used in the French Navy... such as a military register bearing the serial number...
But I am always wary of those who express absolute certainty when it comes to vintage watches in general, and military vintage watches in particular...
Best Ø
Admittedly, some dealers have unusual (not to say f…) practices... even in Paris... I have witnessed this myself...
However, a body of evidence suggests that the theory of fake watches is wrong.
First… back in 1994, these watches, at a government auction, these watches probably cost like 2000-2500 Francs.
So there was no real incentive to fake them…
Then… a less 3 owners were talk separately that the watches were sold by Rolex to Rolex France then to Brest city Ad… a same story seen separately on different forums…
On this point… all the Brest AD were lost which led some people to say that this AD was mentioned because it no longer had any archives...
But… Zaf Basha… Who is anything but a novice when it comes to military watches... recently published a document discussing the city of Brest, years after the controversy...
Credit: classicwatchdc
Credit: classicwatchdc
Credit: classicwatchdc
This document, issued by the Brest tax office, which is responsible for collecting funds when the "Domaines" (the government department responsible for selling property belonging to France when it is no longer useful to the country) sell something, expressly mentions Rolex and Tudor watches...
In this regard, we had previously hypothesized that these watches may have been ordered by an officers' mess rather than by the French Navy.
With this document, it is indisputable that Rolex and Tudor watches used by the French Navy in Brest did exist.
I am referring here to the navy as an institution and not to an initiative by its members who may have made a group purchase before having the watches engraved for their personal pleasure or to celebrate an event.
The explanation is : the « Domaines » could not sell private items…
Moreover… the different batches have the same engraving… and close serial numbers…
If a similar engraving could have be done by an indelicate watch dealer… close matching numbers are difficult to falsify…
Finally, as is often the case with vintage and military watches, provenance is important... However, regarding several examples... I have read that these watches were acquired directly—with supporting documentation—from a person well known for having purchased huge quantities of watches from the French Navy.
Admittedly, there is currently no irrefutable evidence that this or that watch was used in the French Navy... such as a military register bearing the serial number...
But I am always wary of those who express absolute certainty when it comes to vintage watches in general, and military vintage watches in particular...
Best Ø
Pure class as always with your photos.
There’s something so special about vintage subs. The design language here is so pure.