Omega

Dear fellow vintage Omega enthusiasts!

I am in trouble with a vintage Omega Chronometer that I recently purchased from a well reputed online seller.
Judging from his pics case and movement were in excellent condition for a watch dating from approx. 1947. (please see pics below)

Upon arrival the watch was running about 70 secs per day too fast and I had some regualtion and gentle polishing in mind, so I gave the watch to my trusted watchmaker who is very experienced with vintage Omega movements.

To my surprise and dismay his examination revealed the diagnosis of a slightly bent balance wheel which is not rotating perfectly true, thus causing the inaccurate running.

He tells me this cannot be fixed by bending the balance wheel in the right direction, the wheel would most likely break or work even more inaccurately afterwards.

What I do now require due to his recommendation is a spare part or a whole donor movement from which the balance wheel can be "transplanted".

Now the movement - 30T2RG - is not very common and both the balance wheel and the whole movement should be hard to find.

Do you have any ideas how to get hold of the required balance wheel?

The ultimate - and far most expensive - solution would be to send the watch to Omega HQ in Biel, but probably there is another way to solve the problem?

I would value your ideas and comments!

Kind regards

anaesdoc

Hello

there are other problems ...  hands are wrong.   Case I am quite sure is not original to a chronometre, what reference is it?  Does it have an extract from the omega archives, showing that movement came in the same reference of case?  I doubt.

The dial would need to be seen very close, as I have doubts.

The less of the problems is the one you mention, Omega 262-1347 parts (balance complete) can be found,  if not the cut bimetallic, the 1950s replacement in glucydur (chronometre part) - at a price.

Honestly, you would have grounds to return it to the seller, if it is really reputable.  I do not thik they descrbed it as " replacement case, replacement hands and crown, bent balance wheel".

Best wishes, sorry to carry bad news
Franco

the dial seems to be the replacement dial, either from the omega re-make or the batch, that causemann in germany did in the late 90`s. hands plain wrong,case reference unknown and case shape not right. the balance is your least problem. return for a full refund, if possible. kind regards. achim

Not only for your detailed analysis, but the probability to find a spare part.

Probably I am too relaxed about this watch in terms of genuinity, but I simply like it, even if the hands or dial should be replaced and not original. I like the case shape, but I would definitely dislike the gross malfunction of a chronometer movement.

Kind regards

anaesdoc

No message body

Imagine that - a guy named Schmuck sold a watch that doesn't work!  

Remember that this is an international forum so be careful how portable “schmuck” is outside of the Yiddish/American English pejorative usage. While I see the humorous connection you allude to, schmuck in German means “jewellery” (and Uhren means "watches") so it’s quite a reasonable name for a watch company. It’s one thing to laugh at our differences, but another to laugh at someone’s difference.

Disappointing about the Omega Chronometer, though.

Andrew

Ps. the LOL smiley is generated with the following strokes:  : - )   [remove spaces]

The word "Schmuck" in German means jewellery, but I think I understand your joke!

 

anaesdoc

. . . not only in their specifics, but also their recommendation.  It's best to return this watch if at all possible.  

Actually I should have asked the experts earlier, but I liked the looks of the watch that much - sigh!

Kind regards and regrets

anaesdoc

Hi Doc,

Franco has already pointed out all the faults...  not sure about the dial - it looks pretty good. Only the minute track seems to be a bit too wide - but this can be due to the angle of foto. Would need a larger high res. pic to make a final decision. I assume it is a good Causemann redo.

The case:

It is not the classic chronometer case we all know, but:  towards the end of the run of the 30 Rg movements some of the left over were put into various cases by Omega themselves (not by a Franken-creators) - I must admit that this is rather seldom but not impossible. The other possibility: only the sole movement was exported to e.g. France where they produced a "local market" case (due to custom restrictions at that time) - this could be found out by the hallmarks in the case back... Can you post a large high resolution picture of the inner case back?

Otherwise only an extract from Omega will give you 100%

I would contact the seller and explain these facts and ask him for 10 days return privilege to be able to order an extract meanwhile - then you will have prove and you can decide whether to keep it or not.

regards

erich

Yes, Erich is right - there is a chance that it is  a Fab.Suisse case - in which case the Omega Extract will say " movement provided on its own, for export to France"  , and "no details on casing".  In this case  you should have the case labelled Omega but with Fab.Suisse or the "eagle head" hallmark/poincon  proper of 18K french cases.

I also think the dial is suspect, as I wrote, and there are things that should be seen from very close, including the ink, the brushing, the width of the rail and how the silver is brushed inside it.

I am not sure tha Achim is right on the dial.   If this is a Causemann dial , has little  to do with the factory-quality dials of the 90s.     It feels like a recent production, and the ones of the 90's (which I do not think were Causemann - were industrial-quality perfect) had a much smaller subdial (like never seen in the originals).

Best wishes
Franco

 

This message has been edited by Franco on 2012-08-14 00:17:52

for your expert input as well! Obviously some watches cause some difficulty even for the well-informed .

Presently the watch is abroad for servicing, but I will ask them to take a picture of the case back.

Kind regards

anaesdoc

Dear fellow PuristS,

my warmest thanks for all your comments, explanations and help offered in your replies to my problem!

I noticed two things very clearly:

1. I was very naive when purchasing this watch.

2. It´s good to have smarter friends if you are a fool!

Well, the seller was obviously decieved himself and did not carefully examine the watch before vouching for its genuineness and well-functioning.

Just this moment he gave me a call to offer to send the watch to Omega in Biel to check genuineness and performance - I think this a fair proposal, isn´t it?

I hope things will eventually turn out well!

Thanks again for the help of everyone here!

anaesdoc

... you should tell him that "genuineness" to be checked does not mean "original Omega Part"  but " Omega part which is original to this very watch reference".

And in particular if:
-hands
-dial
-case
-crown
were in their opinion originally mounted on this watch when it came out of the factory.

Best wishes
Franco

here you see how semantic issues come into play. I completely agree with your definition of realness and genuineness belonging to this type of watch rather to all being parts from Omega - what horrible watches would be imaginable!

But I am confident Omega have their own concept of originality to preserve the character of their vintage watches. At least the watch will be in the hands of the manufacturer - his verdict has to be relevant for the seller, much more than yours or mine - just "opinions" in his perception.

I will post a note when this affair will have come to an end some day - promise!

Kind regards

anaesdoc

will cost quite a few $$$$$....... was the profit margin worth that procedure?  it buys him time, but what about you, the buyer????? i would not go this avenue. it is never a good idea to buy and collect watches, you have to defend. i`d go for a refund now. just my 2ccc. kind regards. achim

Hi Achim,

Omega have their fees for refurbishing vintage watches, for sure! I will have to find an agreement with the seller later on.

On the other hand afterwards the watch will be in perfect condition for a vintage timpiece and I will have a certificate from the manufacturer that the watch is genuine - what will increase its resale value.

But after all I do not care mostly about that, but about a beautiful watch that I know to be genuine and well working. That may be silly moneywise, but aren´t we watch nuts a bit foolish all the time?

Kind regards

anaesdoc

agreed. just make sure, that the seller gets the right infos back to you. i`d like to be involved in that process; you are the one to pay in the end. i`d communicate with the factory myself..... just try that; get yourself copied on the mails.... good luck and kind regards from down under. achim

Actually the seller - whom I know from earlier sales as a reliable businessman - promised to lay open his correspondence with Omega. As he is a business customer with Omega he told me to get better conditions (i.e. prices) than me if I directly contacted them. This made sense for me.
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see how we share the upcoming costs which might be considerable ...

Knd regards

anaesdoc

you bought a watch from an omega factory business customer ? then the watch should have been checked before the sale, if the price was not low. he should have known, that hands and maybe dial and others are not right. why do you have to share considerable extra costs to get a watch, you bought in good faith in the first place?  something does not add up in my opinion. don`t get taken on a ride, that has unknown outcomes. you should not pay at all as long it is not proven, that the original purchase is genuine and verified by the company. then, if you have to burn money, have it serviced, polished a.s.o. in biel. but only then; do not commit to something, that should have been right in the first place. explore the option of giving it back and wait for a correct example. they are around..... and maybe you should get movement number and case number and ask marco richon at the factory with a short explanation from your journey so far for a short note, that all is good with these numbers. and they both belong to a chronometer from the period. that might cost you euro 50 or nothing. kind regards. achim   

Well, Achim,

the result of the Omega inspection - as far as I see things - might be like this: case, movement and dial will with some probability be classified as original and correct. The hands are not original to the watch as it was sold, but are original Omega parts that blend well with the dial. The balance wheel is bent and has to be exchanged.
All of this will cost xyz Euros.

Now: Did the seller cheat on me? Did he give incorrect information about the watch?

He gave a guarantee for this watch to be real, genuine -"echt" - as it is expressed in German and without blemish.

All parts would be original Omega parts, although probably not exactly those belonging to the original chronometer as it left the factory. So one might say, he said the truth. Most people around here would find the truth to be slightly distorted as we believe "original" to mean: "in the state it was originally sold". However, the seller will argue for his different concept of realness.

What I really do resent is the gross inaccuracy of the watch due to the bent balance wheel (+70 secs/day in a chronometer although vintage are inacceptable. I have non chronometer Omegas that run within the COSC criteria and have the same age!).  This is a considerable damage of the watch and does not concern the issue of genuineness but that of technical properness. This damage has to be rectified by the seller as he sold a damaged watch.

As I did have the watch for servicing at my own watchmaker´s shop, he could argue the damage had not been there in the first place and it was my fault, not to consult him primarily. Of course this does suggest my watchmaker is incapable, but from a legal point of view this might spoil the guarantee he gave me when buying the watch. Of course I would never have found out, what the real problem was, without my watchmaker´s diagnosis.

So all in all matters are not that easy and hope we will find a sort of "gentlemen´s agreement" for it.

Probably the seller would except to refund my money and try to sell the watch for a higher price afterwards as the watch has had a refurbishment at Omega HQ including their guarantee. I might then purchase this watch again - if I wanted to - at a presumably much higher price than I did now.

I will wait what will come up from Omega and see things from there on.

Kind regards

anaesdoc

...  and whatever reassures you enough so that you enjoy it - that's good.

You may however check the Omegamania catalogue, all pieces passed at Kosher by Omega Biel - and you may find several surprises. 

Personally , I would believe and take advantage of the informations from the Omega Museum if I am the one driving the correspondence, that is the one who asks questions.  But that is my personal view, and people may differ,

Good luck
F

For your valuable hints where to look for high quality vintage omegas.

I agree with your preference of driving the correspondence yourself. On the other hand, if I want the dealer to rectify his error (and eventually pay for it!), I do not think it possible to act likewise.
And he asserted that Omega charges the ordinary customer much more for a certificate and inspection than the watchmaker himself.

Kind regards

anaesdoc

Hi anaesdoc


First off do you like the watch "AS IS " , not counting the out of true balance wheel ? 

If you like the watch visually and if the seller can get the PROPER replacement balance complete and running properly would you be happy ?

BUT , if you bought this watch as  an " Original example from Bienne"   then its clearly not in its original configuration as it left the factory ( its possible a French market production, but the dial would most likely also be signed " FAB SUISSE" ....
As others pointed out its a nice looking watch but the real value of the these chronometres are based on the ( assuming its in its original case)  1) movement condition 2) dial  and case and there is a big debate on which is the order of importance...


But coming back to you and your watch.  If you purchased this from a " Professional watch dealer"  the 30T2rg over the last ten years have been brought to the attention of most dealers and the overall level of knowledge of these watches have also been propagated...  In other words I would think the dealer probably knew about some of the "issues" with this example, this is my opinion.

Personally I would request a full refund period.


Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

Yes, I did buy the watch, because I like it, not as an investment or a part of a collection.
In this sense I am a true "amateur" in the original () sense of the word, i.e. someone who likes doing something for no other prurpose than his delight.

Of course I do want the watch to run properly and to be "original" as it was described by the seller. But I feel that some Omega experts here have a much bigger problem with slightly modified parts like the hands. I could live with that knowing the rest of the watch is o.k.

Some gross inaccuracies (concerning movement, case or dial) would diminish my delight, so they would not be acceptable for me and be reason enough to return the watch to the seller.

Thanks again for your ideas, Bill, which probably helped me to express my ideas more accurate for all of you  here and for myself as well!

Kind regards

anaesdoc

Hi Anaesdoc

... update has been posted,   omega.watchprosite.com /