Omega

Hi,
I am an airline pilot and omega collector.for the last 20 years . Recently I bought an omega case ref 2777-1 which do not have military markings. I have seen bill's article and research on ref 2777-2 , railmaster and wonder if this is also the case for the early railmaster......pls help.


This message has been edited by Dr No on 2011-07-27 16:56:51

HI Sohailahmed_777

Welcome to the forum.  Are you able to post photos of your watch?   If not please email me photos and I will post for you...  bsohne at gmail dot com .

Now back to your watch , does it have fix lug / strap bars ?  Does the dial have a broadarrow on the dial ?  etc.....


Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

I suspect they were removed.  You might get some indication by how deep the case opening notches in the caseback periphery are since the one example I saw had much shallower notches.  BTW, the watch I am talking about had a FA dial with the FA symbol erased from the dial (looks like with black ink!)

...  in all cases (british sellers)  I thought that they were some bad attempts to "sterilize them".    There was a time when military watches were sterilised off the military markings in the belief (perhaps right) that identification of the original numbers should be avoided.

As previously said, either the dial was painted over, or exchanged with a simple Omega 30mm dial of other colour and thickness, and/or the back was put on a lather to shave off .5 mm of metal and with it the original issue numbers.

Hi Franco,

couldn´t this be checked / proved by measuring the thickness of the case back?

If you know the original proper thickness it might help...

kind regards

Erich

Absolutely right, in absence of the correct tool

the easiest way is to use two thick coins (in UK one pound coins) one inside and one out of the back, and then use a caliber:

Best wishes
Franco

This message has been edited by Franco on 2011-07-19 00:15:35

Hi Franco,

that is a great trick using the coins and a caliper!

Have learnt something new...

thanks

erich

2777 without anything else. unmolested, thick blanc back. fixed lugs; soldered in. interestingly the case side shape is slightly different to the 1953 mil. omega. most other features the same. it´s in the bank; have to fetch it soon, to take pics. kind regards. achim

top is the white railmastr; below omega 1953.  kind regards. achim

HI

The white dial railmaster used a case of 2777-2 , it also did not have fix strap bars.  Your example is a military case with fix bars and case ref 27777 , which I have seen with 283 swan neck movement with a From what I was able to pices togheter from multiple conversations with Omega Bienne,.  The white dial railmaster was a early civilian/ private  production that one had removalble spring bars ( you can see the holes in the photo below ).  The photo show the white dial railmaster on top ( notice the thru hols for the spring bars.



My article of the white dial ralmaster, I was not clear enough when I mentioned the few ck 2777 that I came across with swan neck regulators.  One was a MOA ( military ) with fixed strap bars , black dial sans broadarrow, and its case ref is just  "2777"  this is what I think Achim's watch is with a  white dial Railmaster and hands ( probably old NOS).   The black dial Railmaster in my article was also a ck 2777-2 and also had  spring bars for the strap and spring bar hold on the sides of the case.

Back to the OP question ,   we have seen some examples of a " 2777" with no caseback markings / other with lightly stamped engravings.  , fix strap bars and black dial with sans broadarrow.

I have been waiting for the OP ( original poster ) to either post or email me photos of his watch so we can actually see it .


Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

and delivered to canada, is exactly, what it states. a trial watch; later modified and sold worldwide. not omegas best seller , but modified over the years for special needs. like the pakistani airforce model , labelled seamaster on the dial and the back.( because pilots did not like the comparison to a train driver...) same for the peruvian airforce labelled flightmaster on dial and back. same reason. even the early black dial railmasters had a few dial configurations; like all luminous arabic numerals. confirmed by the factory. different type of hands. the early white, you have, had another trial in it; the swan neck for this movement. never continued in bigger numbers later. it is a very interesting watch; typical for many other watches and watchcompanies trials  in the 50´s. omega had many spare cases left from the mil. 1953. your case is from the 1953 production. the inside stamp 2777-2 centered. mine is a later production, centered with 2777 only without added mods. my fixed lugs do not point automatic to a mil. watch. that was just a transition as well. most movements were taken straight from the shelves , beeing for the mil. 1953. watchcompanies used up, what they had. the re-positioning in a changed after war market was a challenge. just have a look at the many attempts by rolex to establish a divers watc. so many trials in the 50´s; from normal thin cases and normal small crowns to big cases and big crowns. everything was tried and monitored. ( just follow the heated discussions on the vintage rolex forum about unusual mixtures of cases, movements, dials in the early big crown sub´s.)  back to the railmaster: i haver only seen 4 white dial railmasters. yours, mine and one in canada and one in japan. maybe you know about others ? the factory and especially mr. diethelm tried to dig out more infos. not much in the archives. as you can see in my pics., my case shape is different ( side shape of the lugs ) and the fixed bars are different to the mil. model as well. it´s what it is; a trial watch. different dial configurations; different movements and different cases. and it´s fascinating to discover all these things. but there is no ultimate truth in white dial railmasters; not enough evidence for a pattern by the factory in bienne. looking forward to the pictures of the original poster and the depths of his case back... kind regards. achim

What is your estimate as to how many of these white dial railmasters exist?  Do you think they all came in variable configurations since the watch never progressed beyond the prototype stage?  While it certainly contributes to the rarity of the watch, I wonder if for the same reason there is a limit to its upside because the collector will forever be wondering is this how the watch left the factory?

it was constructed from the military 1953  leftovers, because that contract was a amagnetic construction and there were quite a few spares left.  i´ve seen 2 types of hands; the 1953 mil. hands, coated with a matte´black "frizzly" paint. better to see on matte´silver dials. and the early railmaster hands; big arrow. who knows, what , how many and in what configuration left bienne ? john diethelm could not say a lot from the archive. my case has a slightly different shape to the 1953 mil. case, but inside diameters are the same. the backs are interchangable. why omega produced a slightly different case, might remain a mystery. as will fixed bars ( good for rugged use ) versus springbars. i will send my example to bienne next year ; they are interested as well. here is another pics. from the early railmaster production with a different dial and hands, factory confirmed. i sold that a few years ago; i think, franco has it ? it´s a very interesting watch. i have the white dial example; the military peruvian flightmaster labelled railmaster , the  pakistani airforce issued seamaster labelled railmaster and a very early normal railmaster with big arrow hand in my collection. had a small amag. collection: these and JLC military MK11 ; IWC military MK 11 and patek steel amagnetic and old rolex milgauss with a black dial and the first example IWC ingenieur without date and BP tornek rayville and IWC ocean 2000 BUND amagnetic. a few sold; a few still here. kind regards. achim ..... any more pictures from other members?

  

... I really learned a lot.
Is it possible for you to share some more pictures on this interesting topic

Best and hagwe
Hans

hi every one

Thanks for all the info really appriciate it.. this watch has fix strap lugs and the movement is 283 sr no. 133226.... this is not with the swan neck regulator but a normal one . i bought this watch without the dial from an old watchmaker. The mil markings are not removed as thickness of the  case back is not thin at all.  i am not  in town today will post some pics in a day or so . thanks

hi

I have taken a few pics but dont know how to post it on this site... The thickness of the case back is 0.50 mm. From the bills pics it seems to be an omega 53 case but then the question remain what happend to the markings????? 

. . . is fairly simple - just click on the blue tabs below titled NEW PC / MAC picture uploader (full version) or MAC/PC picture uploader (basic).  If you're still unable to upload your photos, please send them to my PuristSPro address . . .

A r t D @ P u r i s t S P r o . c o m [remove the spaces]

. . . and I'll load them in for you. 

Thanks, Art

hi ill email the pics ......

it´s all a guessing game here.... my guess: this case and the inner amag. mvmt. holder point to corrosion everywhere. that might be the reason for the missing dial. but the caseback has not that much  corrosion.... therefore, it might be one of the replacement backs, omega had in the factory. and till the early 2000´s, they sold them to watchmakers. but, again, just a guess. just ask biel for the delivery country for your movement number. that might clear things up a bit. kind regards. achim 

Hi thickness of the case is 0.50 mm. One thing is for sure that it's not an early rail master case and ninety percent probablily is that it's an omega 53 case ........ Re replacement yes it's a probability .