Jaeger-LeCoultre

For those who still don't know, there is an important auction in Paris, on the 29th of November, which is entirely dedicated to Jaeger-Lecoultre, organized by Artcurial.

The catalog is on line, you can have an eye on it, and some of us received the " paper version " some days ago.

So, let's share some thoughts about the catalog, first, before seeing what will be the results.

1/ An impressive number of lots:

565 pieces will be submitted to the auctions. 565 !!!

Is it a good thing or not?

Let's say that the answer belongs to the bidders.

Still, I'am a bit surprised to see that some of the references come in 2 or 3 examples.

Let's take the E 855: We have 3 ( !!! ) black dials!

Lot 15:



Lot 17:



Lot 387:



I still wonder why 3 are offered, while they could at least remove one, the Lot Nr 15, which comes with an awful repainted dial, and only keep the Lot Nr 17, which is the nicest...

The Master Mariner Deep Sea? 2! Ok, some will say that one is LeCoultre, the other is signed Jaeger-Lecoultre, but it is exactly the same dial.

Polaris II? Three of them are auctionned.

Lot 335:



Lot 336:



You will tell me that the Polaris II came with 3 different dials ( blue, red, and grey ), and you will be right, but here, we have two grey dials and one red dial.

No blue version. Why offering two grey dials, instead of hunting a Blue Dial?

The good thing is that you will see some watches you won't often fall on, like the Polaris 65, which would require a close examination, though ( lot 334 )



One Polaris '68 ( Lot 338 ) :



The Deep Sea Alarm, which comes in the American version ( lot 330 ) AND in the European version ( lot 331 ) even if I never saw a European DSA coming with such a caramel dial, and the crowns are not correct, while the case is nice, and the bezel seems to be good , when on the US version, the bezel is aftermarket, and the crowns are good.





The Jaeger Diving watch is here ( lot 339 ), too, but without its minute arrow hand, and the Chronograph " Shark " is missing while there is a very suspect " Antimagnetic Chrono " ( lot 352 ).

Lot 339, the Jaeger Diving watch:



And the lovely Master Mariner Dolphin ( lot 337 ) :



So, mixed feeling, to say all... I would have expected a more severe selection of watches, and a more complete collection of representative watches.

2/ The evaluation and the condition of the watches.

Globally, I'm surprised, but here again, the bidders will make their own law.

We can never know when some days ago, we saw a black Memovox reaching the crazy price of 20 000 CHF!

Globally, I find these estiamtions too high, but it is my personal point of view.

At least, I would have expected watches in excellent condition, and it is not always, by far, the case.

Some examples:

The Geophysic ( lot 362 ), and the Geomatic ( lot 373 ) obviously made the war...





The Parking ( lot 375 ) had a tough life:



And in a few cases, it is even worse, as the dials are repainted, as previously said...

There are some strange things, too...

Some examples: A " Marine Nationale " which normally is very close to the E 159 SHOM is a Memovox, here ( Lot 360 ) :



A Marine Nationale which was observed in last May, and posted here.

At this moment, we were told by JLC that they will never authentificate this watch ( while I think it may well be good ).

What to think?

Did JLC approve this watch, finally?

Sold 5 000 Euros in May by another auction house, it is now estimated between... 15 and 25 000 Euros.

Same for the SHOM, lot 359. Auctionned in May at 3 000 Euros, it is now estimated between 10 and 15 000 Euros.

What to think about the Geophysic ( lot 367 ) which comes, as described in the text, with a ... PORCELAIN dial???



Not sure that the dial is good, and that is only a bad typo... When you have a closer look at it, and if you focus on the shape of the first " R " of Chronometer...

3/ Despite these observations, there are some cool timekeepers to have an eye on.

- Vintage Wristwatches:

A funky 3072, not the nicest I've seen, but not bad... ( Lot 23 )



A very elegant E 329, even if the dial is in so so condition ( lot 34 )



Some very cool Reversos, like these 3 ( Blue White and Red, since we are in France. )

Lot 71:



Lot 66:



Lot 70:



Estimations in these cases are high, but not irrealistic when you compare them with the prices they fetched on the last auctions.

Some Geophysics...

In Yellow Gold ( lot 366 )



Or in Rose Gold ( lot 369 )



Both estimated too high, in my opinion ( 15 / 20 000 Euros! ) but at least, they are pleasant to see, correct, and in quite good condition.

Two other Chronometers, in soild gold: The Master Mariner, which is very interesting, even if its dial is not in the best condition, and the Geomatic ( Lot 365 and 371 ) :





A very nice Calendar Disk, Ref 2777, rare, and beautiful ( Lot 399 ) :



As we are mentionning dates, there are some other interesting specimens, like these 2 ( Lot 262 and 263 ) :





Some cool Memovoxes, now:

A fine World Time, sadly not 3160, but at least it is correct and in good shape: ( Lot 397 )



And the famous pair of E 855" scale dial " in gold ( lot 385 ) or in stainless steel ( lot 392 ) :





Strangely dated in 1957, in the catalog, you should understand 1969, like the gold sister. But both are really great!

Let's also speak about some military watches.

An interesting black dialed pocket watch, lot 347, while the white dial is in poor condition ( lot 346 ) :





A very nice Mark VII " fat lugs ", quite rare ( see my recent review ), lot 348



And a lovely Mark VII Weems ( lot 354 )



We should not forget some lady watches...For our better halves!





- Modern wristwatches:

The Master Minute Repeater is present, in its rose gold version, as well as the Perpetual Calendar skeleton, and some great Reversos in the same metal ( Chrono and 60eme ) but I would have ALSO expected some true monsters, like the Gyrotourbillon One or the Extrem Lab One.

The 60eme ( lot 425 ) and its 14Ct Rose Gold movement:





Some " old " friends, as this somptuous black dialed Reserve De Marche ( lot 135 )



Or this not less appealing Master Calendar ( lot 136 ). Still I regret to not see the other black series, such as the Ultra Thin, the Memovox, or the Geographique!



At least, the Master Grande Memovox in platinum is here, back from the early 2000. Lot 526 )



And a piece unique, the Reverso à Eclipse " ZEP " in Rose Gold ( lot 519 )





- Clocks and Atmos:

Lot 52, a tempting " Map of the Sky " from the Thirties, just sublime:



A lot of Vintage and modern Atmos, like the Mark Newson, or these 2 Vintage which speal very loud to me, in a totally different way:

Lot 511, the original from the 30ies:



Lot 518, a very nice CH 2, from the same era:



4/ Thoughts and conclusion:

I would have much preferred, for an unique auction, a more restricted selection of impeccable pieces... Less, but in better condition.

I would also have wished to see some references which are missing, here, and I'm a bit deceived by the high ( too high / visionary? ) estimations, while it would have been fairer to let the bidders make the price.

The big regret is that there is not enough information on some important watches, too, and a guideline, a more constructed catalog...

The risk is to see many, too many watches unsold, because too highly priced, or in not that good condition.

There lies the paradox: If you consider pieces which are not among the most famous, but which have a strong interest, you're a connoisseur.

If you're a connoisseur, then you know the market.

If you know the market, you know where to find them, at a much more interesting price.

All these details make the difference between an unique auction and a point of sale.

Still, there are some very interesting pieces, and, of course among those I didn't mention, but I couldn't mention all of them in such a short time.

Still, I am pretty sure that some of us will get the watch, pocket watch, clock or Atmos of their dreams.

So, have an eye on the auction, and best of luck to the bidders!

Best,

Nicolas. This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-21 00:59:05 This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-26 14:24:05

Nicolas,

Very good analysis of the auction.
I agree that there are way too much watches, and some in so so state.

Cheers,

Nilo

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Nicholas, this is a most public-spirited contribution to assist any interested bidders. 

I have to confess that certainly in respect of estimates, the auctioneers in this case seem to have simply hoped for high prices across the board at entry level, with less distinction for rarity or condition than I would wish for. 

From recollection, the brief existence of the Patrizzi auction house set high standards in providing detail on the lots they sold, which I would wish that other auctioneers would study when compiling their auctions and catalogues. Still too much is being left to guesswork of interested bidders by many companies.

In any case, having recently acquired a JLC Shark, albeit in need of some cosmetic treatment, I will sit this one out.

Conor

Let's take two example, the Master Mariner Chronometer ( I posted ) and the Mystery in 18 Ct YG Lot 42 ( I didn't post, but a marvel ).

These 2 are very rare pieces,  which should have been much better documented.

How the bidder can get the importance of these 2 pieces with such a poor information?

Best,

Nicolas.

as it's best

What do I have to do?

Shut my mooth?

BUT there are some true treasures to be found. This is the problem, there are to be found, when they should have been highlighted, in this " Unique " auction;

Best, my friend.

Nicolas.

 

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.. Most and above all:

- Thank you so much, my friend - for a very comprehensive and balanced review, bringing it to our attention and sharing those series
of pics, many of us won't possibly otherwise get to see ( at least not me, likely).

Also, as you so rightly pointed out, I have to confess, that I have been quite surprised ( if not appalled) by the entry price level of some of the pieces,
AND their respective condition ( if my humble Padawan's eye estimate is allowed).

Two further thoughts tend to cross my mind:
- Is this really where the (commercial) Vintage field is going ?
- How fortunate those, who know their pathways, where to look for some of the marvels and are willing to share knowledge and beauty ..

Still an interesting line-up, with-out doubt, but somehow not - how shall I put it - raising and teasing my spirits, with the exception of a very few, maybe.

(Which brings me to the second notion:
- quite unfortunately, I won't have the opportunity to attend , too much around here for me at the moment, to travel the next 2 weeks
- which, although regrettably to be not able to at least SEE some of those pieces, (in addition to visiting my beloved Paris) leaves me less sorry,
than I indeed feared..).

Thus, I will further stay put and in some self-inflicted "austerity-wait" and will try to refresh (somewhat maturedly) my senses and the wallet..
- There will be other times, I trust ..

Thank you so much in so many ways, Nico

All the Best,
hs

PS:

- Furthermore, reflecting on the above and by contrast comparing, with what I/ some of happy few have seen recently:
AND : if I think back what this year has tought me , in sometimes hilarious ways exhibited and partly brought to me,
- I consider myself a very happy man,
and YOU do know that, my friend -- also for this, on a very personal notion : MERCI !

When it comes to an unique auction, the glass has to be full, final point.

Less pieces, no two nor three of the same, better condition, that would have filled the bill in a better way.

How can we highlight the important from the futile, with 565 lots?

How can we defend the important pieces, the true treasures with so many pieces?

STILL, there are very important pieces to get, here.

Hance this post, even if it can't be seen as an exhaustive list of interesting pieces. There are many others!

Wish we can meet soon!

Best,

Nicolas.

and I have to agree, sometime, less (and better quality) is more...

I will be very interested in how the Polaris pan out.  That RED Reverso is a beauty.

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Has a Jaeger LeCoultre ever been sold with just "Jaeger" on the dial, rather than Jaeger LeCoultre or just LeCoultre?

The auction says it has a 2783 in it....an ETA based JLC??

Has it ever been spotted in a catalogue?

 

This message has been edited by BDLJ on 2011-11-21 23:03:22

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..which I think I've seen with a pointed rather than a blunt end in other photos.

"Jaeger" only? I've seen that on the Jaeger tachos/speedos/etc, not on a watch. I suspect this is a 'Jaeger' rather than a Jaeger LeCoultre.

 

 

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the auction is probably a display of JLC watches and clocks we may never get to see again.
And besides the things Nicolas already mentioned, there are 7 diver's alarms, a Reutter Atmos collection (incl. a P01), the Geophysics and Geomatics, an almost complete set of 70s Memovox References ...
There are a few things to keep in mind, though. As you mentioned, the prices are quite high, especially for the watches with renovated dials or new hands.
There are (at least online) some errors in the pictures, erroneous descriptions and divergent translations in the catalogue,
and the watches usually are sold "as they are in the exhibition room".
On the watches, some are "personalised" dials (is this euphemistic enough?), like the chocolate 855, some watches have non-JLC repainted dials,
and i would have loved to see movement pictures to see which watches were remarried (a JLC case with a LC movement or JLC dial exchanges on LC watches),
but i guess i ask a bit much...
cheers, MMK

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While the description of watches in the catalog only gives a relatively reduced, 'external' perspective on the watch (like dimensions, type of movement, reference or name, metal), and indeed doesn't tell what we members of this forum can spot in several cases (repainted dials for exemples), this is quite customary in auction houses catalogs.
The information we are interested in (such as a repainted dial, any information on the movement, potential scratches to the case or any type of malfunction) is nontheless available in the 'condition report' of each lot, which is not printed in the catalog, but can be asked individually for each lot by any prospective bidder (there is an email form to request the condition report beside each lot number in the online lots list BTW).

Now, we can regret that there are a few repainted dials in such a 'unique' auction (they should have been dismissed purely before making it to the print IMHO), but these can be spotted by seasonned collectors, and if any doubt, it is possble to have a written statement (with a guarantee) from the expert of the sale (like for any auction btw).

I have not tried it myself though, as the repainted dials I spotted were pretty obvious   (I might come back on that point later if I have some time)

For example, if you were interested in one of the controversial lots such as lot N°15 or the crappy 'chocolate' memo lot 410, you could click on 'enquiry' on the link beside it http://tinyurl.com/condition-report-lot-410 and obtain a written condition report stating (at least if I were the expert incharge of the condition report) that the dial is not-professionally repainted with an artistic interpretation not consistent with any known dial version for this model.  

Again, not mentioning the condition of the lots directly in the catalog is not specific to this auction, this is how these things work (although we might find it distrubing, this is the norm).

 

Now, when the catalog was released, we were quick to 'jump' on the several (few in regards of total number) suspicious lots with (rightful) indignation (as there had been so much expectation, and therefore some disapointment) 
But as you mentionned in your post, this shouldn't cast a shadow on the whole auction, for which 95% of the lots range  from 'nice' to 'truely exceptional' (and there are many many more outstanding lots than disapointing ones).

Nicolas has already pointed a few gems in a separate post, but there are so many that I guess to everybody its own (I would personnaly fall for one of the Atmos, but I fear it will be out of my reach)

This message has been edited by Clavi on 2011-11-23 02:41:10 This message has been edited by Clavi on 2011-11-23 02:43:41

In reading a few in depth reports, it is not only about some dials, it seems that some mechanics (movements) are a composition, do you have some guidance for this? This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2011-11-23 03:28:02 This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2011-11-23 03:45:19 This message has been edited by PoyFR on 2011-11-23 03:46:07

Hi Clavi,
it is always a pleasure to read your detailed answers!
And you are absolutely right. Most of the watches are fantastic, especiallly in such a compilation.
I also like the amount of watches presented, which makes the auction quite buyer-friendly.
The high estimate ranges are a bold bet by the auctioneer, as some watches might not be sold so easily.
Nonetheless, the condition reports usually don't state the marital status of the watches
or anything about the movements other than "working" (at least the one i got - and why would they?) and,
out of 4 condition reports demanded from the auctioneer on Nov. 8, i have so far received one, and recently i had to resubmit my requests.
I'm not even talking about the photo of a more expensive watch model that came from a different source than exhibited and auctioned,
as it can be spotted easily, but i would wish for auction houses to stop counting on the fair percentage of people not having read the condition report when buying (the so-called "stupid money"), so that auctioneers could include the usual two sentences in the catalogue,
and i would wish for more diligence on accepting watches for auctions and the writing of the expertises.
Thanks for your thoughts and cheers, MMK This message has been edited by MMK on 2011-11-23 10:25:37

I hesitate to post about these watches as it's an ongoing auction...
So no specific details...

Now when I had the chance to look into the auction catalogue more in detail - big thank you to Purist friend!

My thinking is -
Why so many watches? Especially the modern watches...
Vintage - some of the watches are in so-and-so condition.
Maybe fewer lots with higher standards would benifit the high estmates..?

Considering the high quality printing, the amount of vintage catalogues and ads in the catalogue...
I think maybe some more and/or more correct info on the watches would have been nice.
For example - the JLC DSA: ...STAINLESS STEEL WRIST WATCH WITH DATE...
With date?! Even a blind chicken can see there is no date on the watch!
Enough whining...

The good thing is that the auction shows the wide selection of vintage JLC!
A stunning lineup - just wish I would be one of the lucky winners of this auction...

Best, my friend
Blomman

Some refs and movements I didn't know till now...



But we'll see what kind of welcome the bidders will resserve to this auction.

Best,

Nicolas.

Back in 2003 the same auctionhouse had a JLC 170th jubile auction with 382 lots.

Same spread of different items but much higher visual standard on the watches (don't know about the movements).

Don't know how the outcome was - but estimate of a DSA US was...

3000/5000 EUR !!

And the JLC Polaris 68 was the same...

 

Where is my timemachine?!

 

Best

Blomman

PS. Fun note - the inside cover of that catalogue (the biggest pic in the book) has a repainted black E 855...

The 2003 catalog was much better built... Not everything was perfect, but there was more work behind it...

Best,

Nicolas. This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-23 13:49:57

First of all, Nicolas, thank you for your post. It is balanced and perfectly explain why this auction sale is interesting and why it is disappointing.
 
On one hand, there are very nice and rare watches, in particular for clocks and ladies watches.
But not only. As said in the dedicated thread, I am very pleased to see the Lecoultre Chronometer and the Gold JLC Mystery. These 2 are worth being highlighted.
Then, one of the main interests of this sale is the wide coverage of watches and clocks. From my point of view, the catalog gives a very good overview of the rich production of JLC since the early 20th century.
 
I am also a bit disappointed. And this is a question of benchmark. For those that are not familiar with the vintage JLC world, this sale can be a very good starting point. But for those that have followed your posts on the Purists forum, with so many interesting reviews on vintage watches, there can be some disappointment about the selection of mens wristwatches.
The quantity, not always the quality.
The repainted dials are outrageous not only because there are just repainted (repainted dials should not be included in a "Unique Auction"), but because they concerns watches for which specific dial have an impact on the value (black memovox, world time memovox).

I see questions about some of the estimations. But what about the expert of the auction being also a watch dealer? what about the watches that are in the catalog and comes directly from his shop? I know that it is a common practice for Parisian auction sales, but for an international auction? Do the experts mandated by Christies or Antiquorum also include many of their own watches in their catalog?
 
 
You know this kind of feeling after a dinner, accompanied by too much different wines, some very fine, many OK but few corked. I feel the same.

To  me, this is an aucrtion, witrh some very nice pieces, and, as usual, some crap.

Not an unique auction,, whose criterias are necessarily, naturally, more restricted.

They promised a dinner with Penelope Cruz, I ended with Josiane Balasko.

Best, and thanks a lot for your input, Marv.

Nicolas.

This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-11-24 01:51:42

I must say that, although I share the general disapointment caused by the presence of some (a few) less-than-satisfactory pieces in the lot, and a probably too vast / not enough selective inventory, I must say that I have been absolutely overwhelmed  by the exhibition that I had the chance to visit last night. This message has been edited by Clavi on 2011-11-24 01:27:53