Horological Meandering

Hi Again,

I posted here a few weeks back, looking at a number of different hand wind watches that met a set of criteria.  I was looking for my first manual wind watch to add to my collection of  six automatic watches (Ball Engineer Master II Diver Chronometer, Glashutte Original Panomatic Lunar, IWC Aquatimer 2000, Jaeger-LeCoultre Reserve de Marche', Sinn 756 Diapal and a Stowa Antea 365 Chronometer).  I was looking for something that diversified my looks, something that would fit in somewhat dressy or with a pair of blue jeans.  Size was important 37-41 mm.  I also wanted a stainless steel case and a display case back if possible.  My budget was <$8,000.

Since then, I was able to visit a local AD who had some pieces that were instructive to help me hone in on a watch and a few pieces that surprised me in the flesh. I was able to try on watches by Chronoswiss, Habring2 and Nomos at this AD.  Here is what I learned:

Nomos watches, while below my minumum size criteria (they are 35 mm) wear much larger and should not be excluded due to size. I would say that their dials at 35 mm were as large or larger than my JLC RDM.  They represent a tremendous value.  Their design and quality are outstanding.  They do however look quite similar, albeit higher quality and more elegant to my Stowa Antea. So they don't really diversify the look of my collection. I was able to try on a Chronoswiss Grand Regulateur which has a beautiful guilloche' dial.  What surprised me was how the guilloche refected the light and made reading the time more difficult even with blued Breguet style hands. I have always been attracted to guilloche' perhaps within a Regulateur format it is visually too competing?
1. I tried on some Habring2 watches which use the same Fricker cases as the Dornblueth 99.1 that I had been considering.  The Habring2 has a different bezel and a convex case back that protrudes a bit more than the Dornblueth,  Based on this, it is a bit larger than I was looking for.

I also tried on a watch that I had seen on the Internet and not been attracted to.  In person, the watch revealed detail that I could not see in Internet images.  The watch was a Chronoswiss Regulateur 24.  I found the size fit well and the 24 hour, Arabic sub-dial for hours read easily when glanced upon one's wrist.

So from my initial search, the only watch that remains a contender is a Grand Seiko SBGW001.  For those of you who mentioned Henschtel, I did reach out to them via e-mail and I received no reply to my inquiry (curious). So I am down to two very different watches:

 

or

 

 

These are very different pieces.  I have not been able to see the GS in the flesh (only via the internet).  With Baselworld coming up shortly, I could wait knowing that new watches won't reach the system until >September.  What do you guys  think about these choices?  I know that the regulateur would really diversify the collection, but I have never really had the "live" with one.  I would appreciate hearing from any Regulateur owners.  Also this months Watchtime Magazine looked at the Chronoswiss Sirius which uses a similar movement (C.111 vs. C.112) that is also based on the Marvin 700 caliber.  They had very inconsistent accuracy issues based upon position.  I wonder if they got a "lemon" or that there is something inherently at issue with these reworked calibers?

Sorry for the long note, I did not have time to write a short one...(it is horological meandering after all

Bob

the Grand Seiko is a superbly made watch with an inhouse calibre so that would be my choice. on a bracelet it would look good in jeans or suit very much like a Rolex.

the Nomos is a great watch with inhouse calibre and its german which makes it a bit different, but its finish isnt as good as a GS. on the other hand it costs a lot less.

i have a Nomos mainly because it was #99 and has an orangy yellow dial.

go for the Grand Seiko on a bracelet and get a good strap so you can swap looks.

that is just my opinion of course and you'll have 100's of different opinions so really you should go with what appeals to you most.

best

Graham

That would mean ordering a GS SBGW005 instead of the SBGW001.  I also belive that it has a blue seconds hand unlike the SBGW001 which is silver. I would probably be wise to order the alligator band at the time of purchase.  They are an unusual size (19 x 17 mm).  I wish the watch had a display case back as well. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Bob

Graham,

The only GS hand wound with a display back was the SBGW003 which is out of production and they don't come up very often. GS makes two manual wind watches currently (not including some precious metal models): SBGW001 with a alligator band and SBGW005 with a stainless bracelet.  The later also has a blued second hand as well.  So if you want a GS today in amanual wound watch, there is no display back.

Bob

. . . when perfection . . .

. . . is at hand?

[my wrist, Cazalea's impeccable SBGW001]

Art,

I take it that you like the GS and not the regulateur. I like both, just differently...

Bob

Grand Seiko all the way!  I love the sleek, clean dial.  It reminds me of classic 60s men's timepieces.

The Chronoswiss has its charms, but I must admit the out-sized crown, while easy to manipulate, is a drawback IMO on the eyes.

Cheers,
Daos

... there are someone who converts the screw back to display back later on.  Or, there is SBGW003 that has display back, but it rarely pops up in the secondary market....  Nonetheless, GS would be the one I would choose....  Check out SBGW005, although it comes with bracelet, it can be converted to leather strap and one thing I liked most was its blued steel second hand.   Nice...

Eitgher way, good luck and enjoy your search!

Best,
Ken

If I decide on a Grand Seiko instrad of the Chronoswiss, I would order the SBGW005 and a GS alligator band with a GS folding clasp.  I have not made a decision yet.  The regulateur would definitely diversify the collection in terms of look.  I need to think carefully about living with one.  The GS is a classic beauty though.

iim7v7im7,

Of the shortlist, I would choose the Grand Seiko mainly because I have one and it works very well indeed.

Original chronometry results in the +/- 1 sec/day range and in actual use, about that.

 

But your price range just about reaches another understated ultra thin, elegant watch:  Zenith Elite Ultra Thin.

In stainless steel, the 7.6mm thin case comes with 4 dial variations (silver sunray, black sunray, silver sunray/diamond markers and white lacquered roman numeral).

Ref numbers start with 03.2010.681/.... for the line.

Elite 681 movement: automatic 3.81mm height 28,800 vph.

 

Regards,

MTF

The Zenith is a beauty, but the 681 is an automatic movement correct?

I have a Roamer 'La Grande'. Beautiful, classic looking, simple, nicely decorated manual Unitas 6497 movement, sapphire back.

Not sure of todays prices, but when I bought mine 5 years ago it was a LOT less than 8000 dollars. They can be a hard-to-find brand, though...worth hunting down IMHO, as big bang-for-buck rating.

Not a marque one sees a lot, so usually a conversation piece.

Just an idea

Hi,

Roamer Compitence La Grande is a large 44 mm Unitas based watch. They seem to go for <$1,000. I visited the Company website (slow site). The watch is too large for what I am looking for. All Unitas 6497/6498 based watches are in >42 mm cases (like the Roamer). The only ETA based watches that I have seen in a size that I would consider use a Peseux 7001 (such as a Limes Pharo, Blancpain 7002 or a Maurice Lacroix Masterpiece Reserve de Marche etc.). All of the rest use either propietary movements (like the Grand Seiko) or re-worked caliber bases from the past (like the Chronoswiss)

Thanks,

Bob

Well, even if Dirk Dornblüth must be considered an independent watchmaker, he is nonetheless not an AHCI member. If you are interested in manual wind, combined with unusual indications, then you might also look at Rainer Nienaber, who is famous for his various retrograde - and in one case even anterograde - displays:


retrograde minutes with jump hour


retrograde hours


retrograde seconds

Cominbation of all three: Tri-Retrograde


And, shown last year, a very unusual, nice and clean on-hand-watch, the Anterograde:

To prevent an obstruction of the small second subdial, the main hand jumps forward at 9 o'clock



Regards,
Marcus

I own several of both and the quality beats Chronoswiss in my opinion. Most notably in terms of the movement, both GS and Nomos have a consistently good and honest level of finish, while Chronoswiss has highly decorated bridges and rotor while the details are poorly executed.

- SJX

SJX, I am curious about your comment regarding details within Chronoswiss movements being poorly executed (see below). I have not heard this other than one review about 5+ years ago commenting on the lack of decoration on the dial side of a Delphis movement. Can you exapnd upon your comment? Thanks, Bob "I own several of both and the quality beats Chronoswiss in my opinion. Most notably in terms of the movement, both GS and Nomos have a consistently good and honest level of finish, while Chronoswiss has highly decorated bridges and rotor while the details are poorly executed."

Great Look, hand wind, 8 days reserve and reserve du marche. Maybe a little larger, and a used One shold met you budget criteria.

I actually considered a PAM 337 or 338 (Radiomir 42 mm, Ti  and Stainless), which I understood to be the smallest HW. I believe that these watches are 15.2 mm thick which is way thicker than I was looking for.

 

What a superb timepiece and very worthy of it's accolade.

I actually bought both ..one in ss and one in yg.

No regrets. Alongside my other rather "unusual" watches, and along with my ordinary ones...the GS is superlative.