Independents

Up until a year ago, I did not know this watchmaker...

A Purist friend told me of him during an event an sparked my interest....

I have seen a few posts here and photos do show evidence of high watch making...

Hover, I would appreciate if owners/connaisseurs Could share their ideas, views and maybe
comparisons with other watch manufacturers such as Patek Philippe an FP Journe

Thanks



Cheers

Should result in many posts of purists drooling on their keyboards. 

I have comissioned three watches from Kari to date.  He is just fantastic to work with., 

My last post was about getting new dials made for my chronograph. 

Kari is a gem - Kari is a man of his word.  Kari is truly a special watchmaker. 

Good luck on your quest for info and details!

Best,

asg

I will search the forum... again.

Wait until you see a Voutilainen piece in person, particularly his Observatoire model which is a beautifully finished watch that was almost entirely made by one individual.

Then, as you delve deeper into the world of AHCI and Independents, you'll discover Dufour (where your heart will likely skip a beat or possibly fail entirely - joking of course) which will seem like perfection has been reached.

Other individuals are noteworthy as well, George Daniels, Haldimann, Vianney Halter, Claret (probably can't be considered fully independent since he employs a rather large staff that manufactures many of his parts), and Romain Gauthier. Each ones have their unique personas involved in their creations and you will find that you are either in love, indifferent, or dissident towards their creations.

Voutilainen and Dufour are perhaps my two favorite independents because they virtually run one-man-shows where they have almost no employees. Dufour manufactures almost all of the gears and parts himself; then finishes them almost exclusively, and assembles the watch almost entirely on his own. In fact, Dufour only has two employees; another watchmaker and his daughter who takes care of the business details.

It's very much like certain boutique wines that have been touched by the minimal amount of hands before it is bottled and sent to you.

You will love this new segment that has been quiet for many years. Prepare to be touched.

taking the time to respond to my post...

the problem with Independents is that it is rather difficult to see one of their creations in metal....

Interesting comparison with Boutique wines...
I wonder how Voutilainen compare specifically with FP Journe...

Thanks again

Cheers

pinkpanther,

Since you asked for an opinion, I will grasp the nettle and give one  --  mine. 

I rarely make public statements as there is no 'PuristS' right and wrong for opinions.

Objectively, one has to make a judgement based on what emotions that a Voutilainen or Journe piece evokes when you can see, feel, listen and whatever other senses are called into play.

I have seen both men's products. I have owned many Journe pieces and only kept 3 pieces.

Voutilainen's work is better.  (There -- a rare, bold and bald PuristS statement)

Journe's watches produce but a fleeting and ephemeral 'good feeling' until you look closer or until the passage of time reveals flaw after flaw.

Voutilainen's 'masterpieces' have a depth of quality beyond comprehension. There may be 'flaws' that mere mortals cannot see.....for surely, if it is by mortal hand, there should be mortal shortcomings? That be the theory.

Alas, I am also mortal and cannot see anything but 'perfection', even with brow-creasing intensity of scrutiny!  

Regards, MTF

Rare, bold and bald statements enrich our community...

Besides if we all agreed in everything there would be no discussions...



Interesting.... I really like Journe watches so your opinion regarding Kari's watches
intrigues me even more....

Thanks again...

Cheers

Not that I necessary agree or disagree, but would like a better reference point than Journe vs Voutilainen.  I have both btw.

How it grips you emotionally or how long you can stay fascinated by them, only you can decide.  BUT, when you say flaw after flaw, it makes me think!  Is that a reference relative to the fantastic Voutilainen watches? or is that relative to everything else?  Do you see the same flaw after flaw when you look closely at PP, AP, VC, etc?  I guess I would like to hear your statement in relation to other more mainstream "top" brands

My feeling is that even if you get flaw after flaw with Journe, and I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this since I am no way expert enough to comment, i find his INNOVATION fasinating.  This innovation is across almost his entire line and not just 1 or 2 pieces.  Possibly thats how I would differentiate between them.  Finishing & Flawlessness vs Innovation?

Thanks!  Happy Watching

justindependent

justindependent,

pinkpanther asked specifically: "I wonder how Voutilainen compare specifically with FP Journe..."

My opinion specifically made a binary choice between the two watch brands and the One was assigned to Voutilainen whilst the Zero was assigned to Journe.

With another combination of comparator brands, Journe may have garnered the vote. I did not make a cross-table comparison with other brands you listed but they have higher production runs (see later for relevance).

Remember, I voted in real life with my wallet on most FPJ models below the Grand/Petite sonnerie.....that level was too much $$$ for a mere mortal like me.

When I referred to "flaw after flaw", it was not just metaphorical or emotional or about 'visual excellence'. With the exception of one piece (repeat -- read that as 1), all my FPJ watches (authorised dealer or brand boutique, all the usual warranty caveats covered) had to go back to the factory with flaws discovered with the "passage of time"  -- sometimes within a day, week, month, 3-months, year  -- all unrelated to owner usage.

I even bought a watch after the flaw was discovered in the FPJ boutique, on the promise that it would be fixed before delivery.....so I am guilty of rabid cultism too!      Its all part of the rich fabric of watch collecting and I accept occasional failures.....2% for movements and 5% for cases per year seems reasonable. But 50, 70, 90% failure seems a tad indefensible.

If you make 800 watches a year, the testing cannot be as good as a 750,000 unit Rolex factory. We accept that's just life. On the other hand, if you make 30 watches a year, it will get all the quality control and attention of a single master watchmaker.

But, pinkpanther did not ask about performance or function; so I did not mention these details to come to an opinionr.  I confined the opinion to the magic that you already know about. When your glance flits over your Voutilainen timepiece, does your heart flutter? Do you get that warm and fuzzy feeling welling up from the depths of your chest as if your soul was singing a celestial aria, that suffuses into a glow on your countenance? All that because you KNOW that you hold within your tender caress, a watch by the best watchmaker in the world today, (probably the best  -- as they say in the Carlsberg adverts) 

 

Regards,

MTF

 

This message has been edited by MTF on 2011-03-10 20:47:08

Hi MTF, if we all didnt know it, you clearly know your stuff!

I was not trying to say that you were not being fair to Journe in this case (anyway I hope you did not take it this way!   )  I actually just wanted to extend the discussion and see your thoughts on how Joune plays out vs the others, whether the flaws was relative to Kari or in absolute terms.  I agree that when you do a Kari vs Journe comparison, you wont get too many arguments if you give the point to Kari.

In your case i think your personal experience is that you have had problems with Journe watches.     I think that is a real shame since I think many watch lovers think there is something unique and something to love there.  I hope that you will have better experience of them going forward.  I have 2, a CS and Resonance and I have not yet had any issues with either.

If I have to choose, I think the feeling that my Kari gives me is different.  I get all warm and fuzzy!  As I am typing I am looking at it and smiling.  its classical in style and and yet totally Kari in style too.  If my house was on fire and I had my hands full and can only take 1 watch with me, it would be my Observatoire.  But since I have 2 wrists, I would have to say the other would probably be Resonance!

I respect your views and opinions and I, like many have benefited from you and the Purist team's knowledge.  Your opinion is the sum total of your experiences.  I hope you have better future experiences with Journe than the past! 

Back to the thread, was it clear from my post that i also vote for Kari?   But I do love both!

Happy Watching

justindependent

I own several Journes and I'm waiting on my first KV.

I too have had my reliability issues with FPJ's watches, but mostly they have run just fine. And they get a lot of wear on my wrist. I do not pamper them.

FPJ is having some growing pains. I've detailed my issues with them elsewhere in these forums and I won't rehearse them again. But I do think the transition from craftsman to fashion icon is fraught with perils. And FPJ is going through that. I think FPJ the man continues to emphasize incredible innovation and beautiful design, the "warmth" of the old world approach that I would guess many Purists find appealing. And yet the company seems to prefer the "coolness" of being a fashion house, with premiers and "boutiques" staffed with.... well, I'll stop there. But on the other hand, that "avant garde" part of FPJ's character, part of that "coolness," has delivered some absolutely stunning design work (and we've seen with other brands how easy it is to slip from the sublime to the ridiculous on the design front, making FPJ's achievement all the more remarkable). The FPJ designs manage to be not only arresting and beautifully harmonious but always are rooted in a deep understanding of the grand traditions of horology. Obviously I've voted with my feet so to speak and I'm greatly looking forward to joining the KV ranks, but I'll always appreciate the stunning beauty and the incredible design fluency of my Octa Lune and Chronometer Souveraine.

ww

and the clarification adds to the discussion....

I would like though to add that I wanted a comparison not only is aesthetics and finishing
but also performance and function ( my fault as I did not write that explicitly)....

Now, for Carslberg being probably the best beer in the world, there would be many that
would disagree.

Cheers

Hi, Patrick,

Mr. Dufour never claimed, and did not (and still does not, as far as I know) make his own gears, he bought them from a gear specialist (who thought he was crazy, the standards he wanted, but nonetheless, the gears were outsourced, then finished further inhouse)

his daughter has not worked in Philippe's workshop for many many years...

Cheers,

TM

Thank you TM for providing us with a more current and accurate account of the Philippe Dufour workshops.

While Kari's shop is "small" - He most certainly is not a one man show.  Kari has a team of extremely talented and capable staff to assist with various functions. 

Kari is very much and actively involved with his watches and the watchmaking that goes on under his roof. 

The only guy I know that works totally totally alone are:

Daniel Roth

I'm sure there are others. 

I believe though that Daniel Roth is making the most of his watch in-house - gears and all.  Not much is outsourced if that sort of thing is important to you. 

Roger Smith as well - he doesnt outsource much, but he has a team as well - He calls them "the boys". 

There are plenty of ways to see an independants work - take a trip to Geneva, and make some appointments - they will all (typically) welcome you if you are a serious and qualified buyer. 

You can't compare Voutilainen to Journe - its not a fair comparison. 

Journe has a brand.  Journe has 30 watchmakers plus a marketing team, boutiques, after-sales service tech etc.  He's making 500-800 pieces a year.  Journe's quality and finishing, compared to other brands like Patek, AP, VC etc is as good if not better than most.  I like his product. 

Voutilainen's watches are "over finished"  - meaning that the finishing is being performed more for decoration than for function. 

If you are asking who is a better watchmaker Voutilainen or Journe - I think that is an impossible question to answer.  both are at the top of their game. 

Also - I typed Kari into the search field and selected ACHI forum and sort by date - over 753 hits. 
ahci.watchprosite.com

I wasn't certain of how large Kari's staff was but I was lead to believe it was quite small (I imagined less than half a dozen individuals), apparently that is no longer the case. 

Thank you for the clarification. 

Also agree with you that Voutilainen and Journe are completely oranges to apples comparison for the reasons you stipulated. 

...from our recent visits is that Kari has a staff of 11 (including watchmakers and finishers) and Dufour has a staff of 1 (recently hired from PSM). 

We had a chance to visit the FPJ factory as well on our trip, and I have to say that I was quite impressed with the apparent organization of the operation as well as with the friendly greeting we received.

Best,

Gary G