Independents

Hi Watchers

I was just re-reading some older posts and came across some interesting questions.  Someone once asked if Kari's Observatoire (at the time this was his only series production I think) would be devalued with so many different versions of the same watch.  The train of thought (and I summarize as I understand it) is that this pruist throught this can be interpreted as the Observatoire having none of the watchmaker's traits or style.  

Here is what I know:  Case - Steel, all the golds and platinum.  Dial Colour - Silver, Grey, Black and I have seen copper, possible blue from memory, and gold.  Dials - a couple of different styles, from sunburst, basic, numbers in romans or arabic. He also does 2 styles of balance cock and I have seen 1 engraved movement

Actually this discussion on variations should be opened up for many other independent brands since I am only using Kari as an example from the earlier thread and I am not picking on him. 

Are these too many variations for 40 watches?  Do you think this is different to Pateks different offerings of basically the same watch?  For example, lets take the 3940.  It comes in all the golds and platinum, a couple of different dials, there are baton markets, and romans as well. some with diamond bezel or markers etc.  previously some had solid backs and now with clear backs.  How about Dufour?  He has different golds and platinum and a few different dials

Do you see the uniqueness of an indpendent's ability to mix and match charming?  they are able to give you just what you want.  Or do you want to see no variations except case metal because this is the watch makers vision?  Is this better than a brad saying there is 50 in WG with blue dial, 50 in WG with grey dial 50 in Pt with ...........

Happy Watching and Discussing!

justindependent

different from serial production. Independents are closer to bespoke than to serial production. This can be a strength and a weakness at the same time.
With lots of skills or/and a good network in the industry you can offer lots of variations to please the customer and to fulfil his requests.
The challenge is to keep your own track/style - midterm and longterm. As we say: "Everyone´s darling is everyone´s fool"

Brands and independents need there own philosophy and rules regarding the topic. It is not easy to define them and even more difficult to stay with them - longterm.

Lots of examples can be found in the watch industry and only quite a few stay with their own approach - longterm. On top you have to be commercially successful (somehow).

Personally I never buy only a watch, I buy a full "package" - philosphy & rules are a part of that package. Sold watches because of this ... and getting more and more picky.

Kari Voutilainen is a great example to discuss that topic on a high level, but I tried to be neutral in my reply.

Oliver

from an independent is the fact that he accepts to personalise your watch, you are getting a bit of you in your watch which is great.

As for brands, I think they need consistency in design and products therefore avoiding a too large variation of the same watch is better in my opinion.

Staying with the Voutilainen case:
When I think of Kari's Observatories the essential parts are, for me, the dial form with the milled separations between the guilloché fields and the teardrop lugs.
The watches success bases, in IMHO, on design with a perfect combination of tradition and modernity.
Changing the metals and/or colors does not change the essence, IMHO.
And I think the essence of buying from an independent is that it is not simply, take it or leave it.
Good discussion,
Don

 

 

thanks Don for your comments.  I tend to agree with you.  What is the essense of the watch?

The lugs are super nice.  Nicer than the VC old teardrops!  The depth of the dial is incredible.  Not many manage to have such a "flat" dial come alive without getting into the super new moden edgy designs.  i hope the variations in the dial colours or numbers dont detract from the quality of the work and what the watch represents. 

It is just a stunningly beautiful watch!  With Kari and Dufour, you can easily also wear the watch with movement side up!  they are that nice and this is also their essense.  Journe has variations too and limited editions and a much larger production than other independents, but his personality flows right through his range.  You see a Journe, you know its a Journe.

I think what confuses people are the numerous limited editions.  This issue has been beaten to death here on The Purists.  I think MB&F are walking a fine line there.  i think JD (sorry not an inde) in recent years has crossed that line.  I am beginning to lose the identity of that brand.  I loved it 5 years ago with the GS-style and the multi-stone dials.  now everything is limited to 88 and i cannot find something i really like from the newer line.

I honestly feel that the variations allows me the priviledge of actually working with the artists to create something for me.  how often have you wished a watch you liked tohaev a slightly different colour hand or dial etc. 

Thanks to all you inde's!

Happy Watching

justindependent

 

Great topic. I've actually made a catalog of all of the variations in the Observatoire that I'm aware of, and there are 38 distinct dimensions that I have found for approximately 50 watches:

Case Metal RG, WG, YG, PT, SS (Ti?)
Case Diameter (mm) 38mm, 40mm
Caseband Finish Polished, brushed
Dial Material Gold, Enamel
Dial Color Silver, white, eggshell, blue, anthracite, grey, bronze, black, brown (others?)
Guilloche Full face soliel or sectored
Central Guilloche Barleycorn, 12-sector Soleil, 24-sector Soleil, none
Seconds Area Guilloche Clous de Paris, Soleil, none
Outer Ring Guilloche Clous de Paris, none
Hands Shape Arrow with ring, baton
Hands Color Rhodium, anthracite, RG, YG
Hands Accents Color Rhodium, blue
Numeral Type Roman, Arabic
Numeral Orientation Flipped, unflipped
Numeral Color Silver, anthracite, RG, YG
3, 6, 9, 12 Indicators Color Silver, RG, anthracite
12 and 6 Indicators Triangles, round dots
"Voutilainen" Ring on Face Raised three-sector, recessed single-sector
Embossing Color on Face White, black
Upper Movement Plate Finishing Stripes, frosted
Lower Movement Plate Finishing Perlage, frosted
Movement Plate Color Rhodium, YG, RG
Voutilainen Motiers Logo Large arc, small arc, circular
Movement Serial Number Style Large italic, small upright
Balance Cock Style Traditional, tourbillon, traditional with curved sides
Balance Cock Base Finish Stripes, frosted, mirror polish
Balance Cock Shaft Finish (for Tourbillon) Frosted, mirror polished
Balance Cock Color Rhodium, RG
Outer Hairspring Fastening Point Balance cock, separate arm
Hairspring Color Blue, black
Winding gear Teeth Standard, wolf's tooth
Movement Frequency 18000vph, 36000vph
Balance Wheel Style Standard, Guillaume
"Limited Edition" Marking Method Engraved, relief
Buckles Supplied with Watch Deployant, tang (early/late deployants?)
Strap Colors Supplied with Watch Brown, black, blue (others?)
Strap Fastening Method Standard, quick release
Besancon Chronometer Certification Yes, no

I am guessing that no two are exactly alike, although I could be wrong about that -- there might be a few early WG/anthracite face pieces with identical specs.

My experience with Kari is that he is quite flexible (have been involved in a subsequent couple of design discussions with him) but that he won't agree to just anything -- it has to fit his aesthetic. To be completely frank I think that there is one special piece that Kari has done that is ill-considered in its design -- but that's a pretty good batting average. I do agree that independents do risk a bit of brand dilution if they accede to the wishes of collectors, but so far I think that Kari has stayed inside the line.

Best,

Gary G

a limited edition or a limited production number  resembles the watch in the makers aura or DNA so its sort of take it as is or leave it .

i prefer calling it alterations " in the cases where a client is involved in those changes", while variations when its a set of changes sat by the independent " , i would call it controled production in the case of MIH ... however i will stop here with the naming and walk ahead toward my opinion about it .

when an independent open the door for alteration to a client thats doesnt change the fact that those alteration are being made under the DNA of that indepndent brand , due to the fact of watches being produced in small numbers then thats luxury is possible .

 in the case of big brands that would be a stormy issue with the big numbers of watches produced imagine the big numbers of alteration requests...

 aside from the ideolgy the independent brands offer i believe the free space given to clients plays an interesting factor among collectors.

 Faisal

I remember that you were diligently compiling a list of all the specs that you can find.  It would be very interesting to see if you can actaully have a spec of each watch rather than a list of everything as you have above.  I wonder if even Kari remembers what he has done!!!

Hands - Do you have my hands in there?  non-blue Kari circles!

Pick and choose what you like.  Just like when you go to a car dealership and order a car, you pick the paint color, interior, whether or not you want the upgraded audio system, etc. 

Why be satisifed with a version someone else has spec'ed out?

Cheers,
Anthony

for some reason... it seemed like he was willing to do 'anything.' Of course he's a master, etc. But it felt unfocused, unrestrained, too willing to please 'anyone' with 'anything'... I prefer the more restrained and limited approach of someone like Dufour who made a very few variations of the Simplicity--and each is nearly a twin, except in color--or alternately, the roman faux-enamel dial...

I prefer the school which says, I have made this watch. THIS is the watch--now you may have it in these few variations.

The 'anything goes' approach gives me the feeling that the watchmaker does not have a strong (enough) personal vision...

With that said, I feel somewhat absurd 'criticizing' Kari or anyone in his league... but that is how I feel about offering 'too many' variations... it seems to take away from the watch's identity in some important way.

to keep orders comming thus keeping the brand away from harm...?

 Faisal

I think there's a different between a brand watch having too many edition and variation, and an independent watch series that's so highly limited.
For Observatoire, I think it is actually a plus that it has so many variations and yet so few of them out there. It becomes a truly bespoke limited series, very few of such watch out there. And no, Kari doesn't just agree with anything we say. I have suggested a few things before and Kari turns me down without making me feeling like an idiot, which I'm glad my true Observatoire version didn't exist ;-)

I know what you mean by the 'Dufour's' camp, I myself are really into that too. Restrained and few options......but if he really sticks to
what his true vision is, there will only be the 34mm Simplicity. I'm ok with that but you will be moaning in pain ;-)

The only thing with Kari's production is it seems there's too 'many' other productions involving outsource movements, that I think dilute the brand , if not careful. It use to be just the Decimal repeater which are a brilliant and unique concept, then it becomes MR and Chronograph and Date.....which hmmmmm does not bring anything to his brand, imho. I think this is the department that needs some tighter discipline.

Observatoire is just perfect as it is, it will be a legend in a few years time.....it's just too big for my wrist...SIGH.
*CL

and it will feel right for you.  or just have him custom some new lugs?! hahaha

Enjoy your watches.  each has its own story and personality

Happy Watching
justindependent

it makes no difference. The problem is the bezel-less case.
Journe resonance is also somewhat bezel-less but it doesn't wear as big as the Observatoire.
Maybe a darker dial Observatoire may do the trick, best thing about customization ....the possibilities
*CL