Independents

Greetings Purists,

I'm closing in on a personal achievement that I'd like to commemorate with a nice watch. However, it must also fall into the "keeper" and "affordable" categories, so as much as I'd like to spring for the Goldpfeil Jutzi Regulator that has been the apple of my eye for months now, I have to set my sites at about half.

That said, I'd like it to be an independent (unless convinced otherwise by some terrific option I haven't heard of), and it appears they boil down to either a Habring or a Dornbluth. Thus I call on the wisdom of the Purists to steer me toward the right choice--how can we compare these two? I've not had either in hand, so it will be something of a leap of faith either way. If you have experience with one or both, can you help?

Best,
Daniel

I have experience only with Habring; his works are unembellished and some of his small complications (dead seconds, tourbillon etc) are interesting. Dornblueth on the other hand does decoration, which is a bit crude but charming nevertheless, but no complications save for a power reserve (and also a regulateur?). The entry level Habring2 costs more than the entry level Dornblueth but I'd spring for a Habring dead seconds, especially with the NOS Chezard movement; it is interesting and unusual.

- SJX

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Habring.  Their watches have a look all their own - immediatley identifiable as Habrings which is not easy to do without being outlandish these days.  Timeless yet unique designs.  And best of all, Richard and Maria will accomodate almost all requests to customize your timepiece.  Both wonderful people.

Here's mine.

Darren

 

The dial options and customization Habring offers is amazing--that dial and hand/marker combination is really striking.

Best,
Daniel

This is possibly one of the only downsides (I use this word lightly) of Habring2, too many choices.   Will all the different dials and additional complications and NOS movements I am like a kid in a sweetshop and can not just commit to a single configuration.  I can see why people but multiples.  One of these days I'll make a decision...

given the modularity of Habring's movement.  for me, that is the telling and decisive difference between the two.  All things being equal, I'd opt for Habring.  I'd pick DZornbluth only if the styling speaks to you--and a very alluring one at that.

I am with those two above on this one with the same/similar reasons, although I have not had a pleasure owning either one.
PLUS, they (Habring) are said to be going to start making 36mm versions. That is a HUGE plus for me and I will surely place an order once it becomes available. I have a small wrist :-(

Ken

Richard and Maria Habring said the new cases will also be slimmer (less than 10mm for the handwound Time Only).  The A09M will be the first movement housed in the new case (their in-house handwind time only) with a plan to follow that with a new manual wind jumping second, and new automatic time-only movement. 

I think this is an interesting development for Habring², and I look forward to seeing the new 36mm pieces.

Cheers,
Daos

So are they moving toward an all in-house movement? How will that affect prices? One reservation I have about their current line-up is that while I really like the watches, the handwound movement isn't much to look at. Where can I find out more information?

Daniel

...the new movements will be like.  I don't know if they will be built up from scratch, and I get the sense that things are still being hammered out, although this could only be my impression.  I think the current timeline for these 36mm watches is to offer the A09M Time Only at the end of 2010; the new Jumping Seconds manual-wind by mid-2011; and new automatic Time Only by end of year 2011 (all subject to change, of course).  The Habrings can be contacted via their US AD or via their website for more information.

Good luck.  I don't think you can go wrong regardless of which direction you take in your quest for another independent piece.

Cheers,
Daos

I apologize for reposting a photo I posted on WristScan yesterday but I recently obtained this one and love wearing it as an everyday watch. A watch for all uses, short of black tie. (Which is not to denigrate the Speake-Marin I also recently got and posted here, but that's a different animal entirely). In fact, I am already am ordering (well, yesterday, literally ordered) another Habring (well, two other Habrings) to go with it. I made that decision after walking through a large high end store and essentially comparing this one to virtually everything there, even much, much more pricey watches. Still would have been my choice. If you like the aesthetic, certainly worth considering.

I'm so glad to see another Habring fan on the boards.  It's only a matter of time before I add another to my collection.  Can't wait to see your latest pieces.

Cheers,
Daos

It sounds like I need to call the US AD and see what I can find out, as I'm not looking for a chrono, but interested in different dial/hand/marker combinations. The trouble is that I'd really like something with blued hands, but the Habrings seem to work better in the polished silver--much more cohesive with the design, I think.

Daniel

...enamel dial and blued hands/indices?  I really like the combo.  If you haven't seen it, I'll try to see if I can dig up a photo.

Cheers,
Daos

It's a beautiful combination. I also saw a display of dial options, one of which looked like a dark silver dial with blue markers and arabic numbers. That's one I'd like to see more of.

Best,
Daniel

I love the Dornblüth watches, with the 99.1 being my current favorite.  I find them charming, with an honesty in design and construction that is also apparent in the Habrings' watches. 

What elevates the Habring² pieces for me, is their unified look and approach to offering complications that are uniquely presented and robustly built.  Their jumping seconds works beautifully, with the second hand accurately jumping to each index in the minute track -- take a look around at other jumping seconds watches, you'll find that isn't always the case (sometimes the "jump" hits the index ahead/after the marker).  Their new foudroyante is so appealing IMO because of the way it juxtaposes two displays that seem to speed up/slow down time -- it's currently on my wishlist.  The presentation of their tourbillon 3D is interesting and different than anything being offered by other companies currently.  Plus, Richard Habring is well known for his work with tourbillons (amongst other complications), so there's a certain cachet to owning a Habring tourbillon IMO.  Other unique offerings from the line include the COS chronograph which is pusher-less and involves manipulating the single crown. 

Phew!  You can tell I'm a fan.  Now, some additional food for thought, and these are comments I have shared before with the community and the Habrings themselves (Richard and Maria are fantastic people and great to work with!).  If you are a finishing junkie and only the best anglage will do, the Habring² (and frankly the Dornblüth pieces also) will not be your cup of tea.  I would say the Dornblüth collection overall has a more charming finish, while the Habring watches have a clean, utilitarian finish.  Comparing the finish of these watches is really not that meaningful to me, because the watches occupy very different aesthetic places in the world of horology.  Just my two cents.

I've heard nothing but good things about the Dornblüths, and hopefully our fellow Purist, "glickman" will weigh in with his thoughts, as he owns several.  I can personally attest to the kindness and professionalism of the Habrings.  I would not hesitate to work with them again.  Other than the watches from these two companies I would suggest you check out the MIH watch, as another competitor in this discussion of entry-level independent watches.  Some photos and additional reading for you follow.  Good luck!

My Habring² Jumping Seconds review.

A cool watch from Dornblüth!

Beautiful MIH pictures.

Use the forum search function on the site to read more about Dornblüth, Habring², and MIH watches.  There have been quite a few posts over the years.  And, lastly, like any proud mama I've got to brag on my baby and favorite watch, the A07M manual-wind Habring² jumping seconds. 

Cheers,
Daos

I'm no stranger to the independents--I drooled over the MIH for a very long time before finally acquiring one 2 years ago, and really want to purchase another independent rather than something from a big company, as I love the honesty and cohesiveness of vision they offer.

Your Habring is amazing, and I have read your experience with the order several times, not least because I wonder what a slightly darker grey dial would be like with the silver markers and hands, but blue numbers and seconds hand.

Still, there is something about the Dornblueths that calls to my 19th Century sentiments (I'm a philosopher, and 19th century German philosophy is my area)--they could be from that time, I think.

I also wonder whether the design of the Habring isn't pretty similar in spirit to the MIH--wouldn't the Dornblueth provide a better contrast? Finally, I confess that the movement on the Habring leaves me somewhat cold with the big plain plate in the middle. But perhaps the advantages of customization weigh that out.

Best,
Daniel

...couldn't fault anyone for picking one up!  I totally spaced on the fact that you already have an MIH, sorry!  I have come close to pulling the trigger a few times on the Dornblüth 99.1 and Central Seconds.  One of these days I may well do so.  The movement in the jumping seconds, in terms of its looks only (as functionally it's great), is definitely its weakest point.  However, I do wonder if the bridges were redesigned heavily and needed many more hours of finishing would price be impacted?  Would the movement be as robust?  I simply don't know.  Richard and Maria have entertained opening up that big central plate a bit more in order for us to better see the jumping seconds mechanism.  They know many collectors have discussed this aspect of their watch. 

One thing to consider should you get a Habring² is perhaps choosing the solid caseback option.  That solves the issue of looking at a movement you don't love. 

Cheers,
Daos

something for me to start to think about. i'm assuming the foudryante will be available along with the standard dead second.

i've never handled a Dornbluth or Habring, but do have a few independents including the MIH. the MIH would be a great watch as your first independent. its a whole lot of watch for the money with a superb team behind it. the Habring would be my other choice as personally the Dornbluths dont do a lot for me.

dont forget that there are a huge number of 'independents' around that we hear very little about because they sell reasonably priced watches to people who dont normally frequent this forum. technically any brand that is not owned by a conglomerate is an independent even if they buy in ETA movements/Ickler cases etc. you can probably tell i'm a fan of the underdog

Graham

...so a jump second foudroyante seems right up your alley, Graham!

Cheers,
Daos

with allusions to Bolzano, Wittgenstein, Neurathm and Popper......  Habring gives me a sense of Gustav Klimt as well.....

Warm or cool? "Charming" or "utilitarian"? Romantic or Teutonic? Simple or complicated?

The OP has challenged us to distinguish between these two wonderful independent brands. It occurs to me that there might be as much in common between them as there are differences.

I know D.Dornblüth & Sohn well, and I can personally attest to the fine qualities of the people and their watches. By all accounts, the Habrings and their watches are held in similarly high regard. Both offer the rare opportunity to personalize your watch and to form a relationship with your watchmaker, the latter being a very special aspect of ownership experience.

It seems to me the choice must depend on your mood. At this juncture, and in light of the personal achievement you are celebrating, which feeling will be a better fit?

I totally agree with you that the two companies have much in common.  I don't think there's a bad choice to be made here!    Thanks for weighing in.  I knew your comments would be very helpful to the OP.

Cheers,
Daos

I can only speak about Dornblüth from the perspective of the one I have, the 04.0:

I think the first thing to consider is whether the aesthetic grabs you.  The marine chronometer look isn't for everyone, but if it sings to you, then I think you'll be hard pressed to find a more honest example.  The second thing to consider is the size.  The models available are either 42mm or 34mm.

Dirk is a great person as well as a fine watchmaker, so I'm confident your experience will be good if you work with him.  Someone mentioned above that his movement finishing is crude; I might not use that word, but I understand the point: finishing certainly is not as fine as the major houses or best independents.  Dirk begins with an ebauche, to be sure, but the rest is handmade: no CNC machines, just lots and lots of lathes and hand tools.  Examples: The swan neck you see above is simple, but was cut individually from a steel plate, hand polished and tempered.  The regulating screw is made in one piece from steel rod stock.  The balance cock is engraved by hand.

Dials are very good, and options are getting better.  The Regulator model offers an engraved, silver-finished dial made according to the methods of traditional ship's chronometers.  Several models now have fired enamel dials as well.

Weaknesses?  The cases are solid and well-finished with brushed and polished areas, but are a bit generic.  Hands are well-executed but lack, in my opinion, a bit of the elegance of the dial.  Movement finishing, particularly the plate edges, the striping, and the rose-gold plating, show imperfections under the loupe that would not be there in certain more expensive watches.

I could go on and on about how much I like Dornblüth's watches, but in the end, I think you can see what you get: a simple, robust watch largely handmade by master watchmaker and a true can-do person.  If the traditional German look and execution lights a fire for you, then your choice is easy....

regards, Tom

Here is a picture of the DDS swan neck being made. For some reason this image (not mine) resonates the hand made aspect of the watch. Not just CNC made and hand finished.  But "hand made"

It makes you think about what watchmakers went through hundreds of years ago without CNC and electricity of any sort.  The mind reels.

Have a good one!

Cheers,
Daos

had no idea the Swan Neck is hand Cut.!

Tom, how did you manage to get a blue hairspring?

I went to collect my Dornbluth watch in Kalbe (from Mauritius, it is a long trip....), and the experience was simply wonderful. Dirk and Anja are extremely nice and I look forward for the new reduced size they are currently working on. My Dornbluth has since been my daily preference.

Damo

This message has been edited by Damo on 2010-10-17 22:52:20 This message has been edited by Damo on 2010-10-17 22:55:27

You have an eye for detail, Damo!  Honestly, I don't know why the hairspring in my Midi is blued, and I didn't ask Dirk to make one specifically.  According to the 04.0 specs, the hairspring is Nivarox-1, which is usually silver-colored.  Can the Nivarox alloy be turned blue through heat-treatment? 

I suppose it's possible the hairspring is actually a different alloy (Isovar?) or even that Dirk has used the original hairspring from the vintage GUB movement that served as the 04.0 basis.  Whatever the answer, it's yet another small detail to fall in love with!

Tom