Patek Philippe

I don't see many yellow gold 5070s for sale compared to the 5070 in rose gold. Was the rose gold version introduced at a later time?
Thanks in advance for your input.

First the 5070 J (yellow) : Made from 1998 untill more or less 2002

Than the 5070 G (white) : Made from 2002 untill 2006

Last came the 5070R (red) : Made between 2004 and 2008

As you can see, all of them were made more or less 4 years and they made about 250 of them per year, per color

So it must be around 1000 in total per color. There won't be more red than yellow but the yellow is the oldest and probalby more in the pocession of collectors while the R is still easier available at secondhand dealers, when those are bought by collectors you won't find them that easy anymore

To stop this reference they made the 5070P, by far the most rare, only made during 1 year and total production won't  IMO fetch the 250 per year. I don't know but I think 150 max 200 is closer to reality than 250. Besides, it's much easier to find a 5970P than a 5070P while the 5970P was also only 1 year in production.

the 5070P went through a phase of being easy to find and buy. I would say that over the last 6-12 months that has definitely changed. I rarely see the P for sale, and when i do it is with a very firm premium.

I have a soft spot for teh RG version, if i am honest.

Thank you Bruno.

nt

Hi,

I admit that the produciton years must be somewhat exact, but we have no idea, nor beginning of idea of the produciton runs.

Patek Philippe has announced 250 pieces the first year of production of the 5070j but has never committed to that figure later nor given any other figure.

So nobody out of informed people inside PP has the information.

Cheers

Dje

      Those 250 per year were not in the first year of the 5070J but it was said in a Patek magazine where they showed a pic of a 5070G. So it must have been around 2002
I agree that the 250 per year was a fact we got in 2002, so at the end ( 2008 / 2009 ) it could have been a little more.

But we know the total production of Patek watches did not double between 2002 and 2008 Maybe they made 15 or 20% more watches in these 6 years but it won't be much more.   So I think we can say that those  250 per year (in 2001 or 2002) wouldn't be much more in 2007 or 2008
BESIDES, between 2004 and 2006 they were making 2 versions at the same time. G and R.  They had to split the movements between these 2 so probalby in these 2 years they even did not  make 250 G AND 250 R  per year. But rather 125/150 R and G per year

I did not say it was a limited edition with exactly 1000 pieces per color but with some facts (untill 2002) and a bit of logic I think it's safe to say that it will be pretty close to 1000 per color. It could be  893 or 1172 but definitely not 2500

Patek's marketing will never allow you to know... buy the watch you like. Ideas such as rarity are 'scams' to put it very bluntly--UNLESS real numbers are given by the manufacturer.

rarity is an issue that is one of a number of factors that contribute to what we like about watches.

Do i typically buy watches I like to wear? Always.

Are those watches "typically" rare? Usually.

I like to buy watches that appeal to me aesthetically....historically.... because of a particular theme that fits with a collection etc etc. Rarity is the cherry on the icing on the cake.

Get over "rare"... just is too simplistic. Rarity is and always will be a factor in watch choice. For me it is not the first thing I look for...or second actually...or third. But is it usually a factor...yes...and why not?

The distinction between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition is crucial. It is never a sufficient condition. But actually, it can quite validly be a necessary one for many.

Anyone planning to part with 100k+ for a watch has to decide if it's a wise move.  That criteria may be styling, exclusiveness, or future value.  How many out there do NOT consider future value when making a large purchase?  I do not know anyone willing to spend that kind of discretionary fund knowing the item will depreciate considerably in the near future.  If not a big appreciation, then we want the purchase to at lease hold its value somewhat.  Just my $.02 worth.

As per forum rules we do not allow discussions about value. Thank you for your understanding. Dje This message has been edited by Dje on 2011-06-18 06:53:45

I don't mean get over 'rare' as a blanket statement. I own a very rare watch and am thrilled at the thought of just how rare it is--BUT--BUT--BUT--the manufacturer TOLD ME and the world how many were made--so I am not 'supposing' or 'extrapolating' or 'deducing'... based on marketing... or years in which a model was made...

That is all. Of course rarity matters!!! But with Patek--the word rare comes with a caveat. This message has been edited by Mostel on 2011-06-17 14:25:26

Will we buy an ugly watch, just because it is rare?

No way!

Wel, at least I do hope so.

When I fall on a nice watch, I just don't care it is rare or not. I want it!

Best,

Nicolas.

Nicolas, remember when I visited Paris that you showed me a very rare JLC military. That was a stunningly rare watch. I mean, extremely rare. Yet, does that in itself mKe me want that watch? In actual fact, it has nothing to do with what drives me to either desire it or not. It could be the rarest watch in the world and I still would not look to buy one. I understand that it is beautiful to you. And I understand that it is one you love. But you too don't love it just because it is super-rare.

However, imagine a situation where I am looking at two watches. Both of them have fantastic history. Both of them look awesome. Both of them fit a theme of my collection. Both of them have beautiful patina. But, one of them is much rarer. In fact, one of them is so hard to find that one hardly ever sees one. Suddenly, I have a clear choice here. The rarity tipped the balance. It created the cherry on the icing on the cake.

This is why I always find myself getting involved in discussions about rarity. Rarity has it's appeal. Rarity adds spice to a watch purchase. It's special when a watch is rare. Would I ever buy a watch JUST because it was super-rare with big investment potential? For me, I would never do that. If I don't want a watch just because I love wearing it, then I just don't want the watch regardless of how rare or potentially valuable it is. But if it is one I love AND it's rare, then fantastic. I have my cake and eat it.

I do find it strange how rarity seems to be this unspoken almost dirty word that purists shouldn't mention. From my perspective, rarity is great. It is exciting. It is spicy. But it is never on it's own a reason why I would buy watch. If others would, then actually I wouldn't have a problem with that at all. Each to their own. But a guy who buys a watch because it is rare and has investment potential is buying it for investment and not because he loves watches purely for the joy of wearing watches. I know a guy who buys pretty much every Patek on offer every year. They are never removed from their body bags. And all kept in the safes. It isn't his hobby. It's an investment. Each to his own. Would I do that? No. Does it make it "wrong" that he does this? I know huge numbers of people on this forum will think he is wrong to do this. I just couldn't care if it is wrong or right as I don't think there is a wrong or right. It is just his choice.

So where does that leave me on the theme of rarity? For me it isn't a dirty word at all.

 

Let's take an example: The 5070.

If the 5070 has been produced in let's say 100 000 pieces during its life, do you think it will be so sought after?

I don't care about its rarity, and to say all, I would have preferred to see it produced in 100 000 pieces as I would have got it soonner, rather than having to wait 7 years.

Rarity is anot a dirty word, for me, I rather see it as a bad reason to go on a watch, or to not go on it.

The eternal " Do you go on a watch for THE watch, or for what it represents " dliemma / problem / question.

Best,

Nicolas.

Never buy a watch JUST because it is rare

Is it OK to buy a watch that you love AND is rare? Of course

Can rarity be one (amongst many) factor in buying a watch? For me, yes.

I agree on teh 5070...i would have preferred there to have been loads more made so that I would have paid less... no question. However, given I have one, yes I am pleased i don't see them on everyone else's wrist....hahahahaha Patek snob after all!!!

No message body

in a highly sophisticated watch forum?

The Patek forum has always tolerated more commercial discussion than other brand forums. Let's face it, Patek themselves use commercial factors in their advertising. In that regard it's not as purist as it perhaps is technically. In a commercial sense I tend to think of Patek as the Rolex of the high end segment.

speculating with watches is something most of us don't  like

But imo Barka's question was not about value ... I know, the rarest will probably be the most valuable but if he wanted to know some facts, why not give them

If somebody wants to know how mane 2499 were made, why shouldn't we answer 349 ?

Best regards,

nt

My first post contain hard figures so it was deleted. I had no issues with that

I am re-doing a 2nd attempt to make the point.

I write as a proud-ex-owner of all 3 metals of 5070: 5070J, 5070R and 5070G. Bought them all from an authorised dealer shortly after they came out in Hong Kong at a good discount. In 2007, a major event in my life forced me to sell them all, and I was pleased thay all sold at nearly 2-3 times the price I paid. Having said, I have to live with the regrets of parting with them. Same applied to a 5100J and my dear, dear 5020R.

I think we Patek lovers agree that Patek watches are to keep and not for flipping or profit.

But if you want to guarantee an appreciation of value for your Patek, you have to buy in at cost (preferrably with a sicsount like I did). Anything apart from that, you can hope it will hold the value.

Finally, from s strictly investment viewpoint, Patek has served me excellent in terms of gains, hands down.

Larry

I have always found that discussions of factors like rarity really distance one from the point of purchasing in the first place: seeing a piece and having an attachment to it.  I think that long term, it is wisest to purchase a piece that you really like, hang on to it, and then see where you are if you ever want/need to sell it.

Paul

the fact is that many people, regardless whether they like the piece or not, buy for that reason (rarity) and pursue watches which are hard to find, again for that reason. It just seems that people are dancing around this subject. It's a factor and can be an overwhelming factor for some in the decision making of owning one piece vs another.

I'm certainly guilty of it. I love the 3960 ($9500 for yellow and $16,500 for platinum when introduced in 1989) and recently had an opportunity of buying a yellow gold version but then a platinum model surfaced for four times the price of the yellow gold version. I certainly would have been satisfied with either but I now look on my wrist daily knowing that there are only 49 other folks in the world who own such a piece.

Maybe most folks here wouldn't buy them for their rarity but there are those who do. Rarity is the sizzle which can help stir the emotions to part with a larger to huge sum of money.

Until 1985 or so (when the 3940 replaced the 3450), production figures for the 3450 were pretty well known, I believe 281 pieces if I'm not mistaken. During its production years, its popularity was not very high at all ... but look at it now. Most folks here, if offered a 3450 or a 3940 for similar prices, I would suspect would opt for a 3450 in a flash but in 1985, everyone I showed both to opted for the 3940 for its appearance. The fact is that the 3450 commands a premium over the 3940 because of its rarity. The 3450 is one of many references which share this "rarity" factor because prior to 1989, so few pieces like this were produced. Just look at the past issues of the Patek magazines and see the models sold at auction, Patek themselves, are marketing this rarity and perceived value because they know we all want to see that these pieces are bringing huge sums. It makes us feel good about our purchase... and it does for me.

Other than specific limited production pieces, anything is apt to make it back in production or certainly a variation so just because it's not currently in production doesn't mean it can't make it back sometime down the road.

... for me, when deciding whether or not to buy a specific watch, but only when I liked it in the first place. And rarity is very relative. There are watches, which are extremely rare, but I still would not want them. Others, like the 5170 may not be rare, but if you want one now, you either have to wait or pay a premium. That is, why I ordered mine about 10 minutes after I saw it for the first time in a magazine - I immediately fell in love with it AND thought, that I would have to be fast to order it. The same is true for the new 5235. A regulator has been on my wishlist for quite some time and when I saw it in the PP-mag I fell in love and called my retailer, now I am the first on his list of clients, who want that. Nobody outside PP knows if this watch gets rare or not - maybe not even them, because the regulator dial is special and I think it is hard to estimate the demand.

I think the fact that it's a PP and launched outisde of the fair will ensure it's demand.

I love your 5170!!!!!