Comments:
Yes, Sweden fits to the map of 5131P.
But can you see your home in the map? When watching the map carefully, I am sure I can see mine: 250 km north from the Arctic Circle, in the eastern part of Lapland. If I imagine the dial in the dark, I am sure that Aurora Borealis will appear and start their dance lightning up the whole scenery.
The new 5170P will surely leave nobody totally cold. Many of us love it, many hate it. I'm sure it will not be a long production run and one day, with the same movement but different case, there will be a new platinum chronograph.
Best, Kari
The 6006 could be even nicer if...
...the date font was thinner than that used for the hours. They are too similar in weight and compete with each other. The date should be subordinate to the hour and provide some contrast. Maybe they will change the dial at some point.
The 5230G is fantastic. Really like the dial color and hand shape. Can't wait to see it in the 'J' version.
Great report...thanks!
m
The 5230G is fantastic. Really like the dial color and hand shape. Can't wait to see it in the 'J' version.
Great report...thanks!
m
Every fan of Patek is also a self-made designer.
I used to be upset with many references because they were not according to my taste. Then I realised it: Thierry Stern is not coming to me and giving his demands about my next ships; not even demanding to stay on tanker segment or demanding moving to bulkers.
I take care of my business and let T. Stern take care of his.
I agree what you say about 5230. You are waiting for J, I'm waiting for P.
Best, Kari
Just an opinion...
...but an informed one. I am (was, now retired) a university-trained graphic designer who worked for 30 years in the tech industry as a designer/art director/ creative director. That includes both print, packaging, advertising, and digital app design (UI/UX). How things look...type, space, hierarchy of information is something I see and comment upon.
Of course, PP doesn't care about my opinion. However it still amazes me that some of these brands make fundamental errors with type and design that result in watches that are less legible/aesthetically pleasing than they could be.
I don't comment upon movement design as a rule (except that I despise round movements in rectangular cases) because I am not qualified to do so. Visual design, however, is something that I know.
So take my opinion with a grain of salt, but know that it is at least an educated one.
Good luck with the 'P.' I can only ever hope to afford one of the lesser metals pending another IPO from one of my wife's companies. You won't be surprised to know that she is the smart one : )
Best.
Of course, PP doesn't care about my opinion. However it still amazes me that some of these brands make fundamental errors with type and design that result in watches that are less legible/aesthetically pleasing than they could be.
I don't comment upon movement design as a rule (except that I despise round movements in rectangular cases) because I am not qualified to do so. Visual design, however, is something that I know.
So take my opinion with a grain of salt, but know that it is at least an educated one.
Good luck with the 'P.' I can only ever hope to afford one of the lesser metals pending another IPO from one of my wife's companies. You won't be surprised to know that she is the smart one : )
Best.
True. But both are far from objective truth if there is such a thing. [nt]
No message body
Not "just" an opinion
There are people who have better trained eyes and "antennas" for design than others. And then there are people who are "fanboys" and applaud whatever a manufacturer puts to the market.
Fonts of recent PPs have been discussed and criticized often enough, if you look at the 3940 vs 5140 debate. Or the proportions of the 5110 vs mine 5130, especially the "city ring" and the space of the city names relative to each other. Or the various complaints about using Serif fonts for the date window in Calatrava and other models. Lets not even get started on the otherwise stunning 5131 and their ALL CAPS ZAPF CHANCERY FONT.
So I thing mdg has a valid point.
Furthermore, I keep on wondering about the 5230G's two "lost" indicies at 5 and 7 on the dial. What is their purpose?
Fonts of recent PPs have been discussed and criticized often enough, if you look at the 3940 vs 5140 debate. Or the proportions of the 5110 vs mine 5130, especially the "city ring" and the space of the city names relative to each other. Or the various complaints about using Serif fonts for the date window in Calatrava and other models. Lets not even get started on the otherwise stunning 5131 and their ALL CAPS ZAPF CHANCERY FONT.
So I thing mdg has a valid point.
Furthermore, I keep on wondering about the 5230G's two "lost" indicies at 5 and 7 on the dial. What is their purpose?
It is not very fruitful to discuss matters of taste.
I like, as an example, the dial of 3940 much more than the one of 5140. However, Patek has the right to produce what they want and we have the option to buy or not to buy. There are enough watches around to please everybody.
I have heard several times people saying that they find 5140 much more readable than 3940. I also heard from Patek that they got a lot of criticism about the fonts of 3940 and that they tried to improve the old dial. Whatever is done, it can't please everybody.
Best, Kari
I think...
...a forum should allow some debate about style and design (not taste, which is your or mine taste, which I am not criticizing). Otherwise we could move this whole thing to Instagram and limit comments to "great watch" - "no YOUR watch is even greater".
My personal belief is that manufacturers once in a while produce a real "stunner", a game-changing "unicorn". But they also make some quite average stuff, some questionable facelifts when a product moves on in its lifecycle (see Acquanaut, now in precious metal and with all sorts of complications, only diamonds on the dial are missing so far).
And that goes for artists, car makers, musicians, watchmakers and so on. They have their ups and downs and Amy Whinehouse moments (think of Mercedes in the 2000s). They want to become something what they are not, they are tired of singing the songs which made them famous, or they cant come up with good new ones.
I would not want to be in T. Stern's shoes, with an impressive history of "game changers" in the product line. How is he going to even continue, if not even exceed that greatness? Carmakers tried to come up with product variations, "marriages" between SUVs and coupes (think BMW's X6 - horror). Stern can "marry" sports watches with complications which were invented earlier. The big "whats next" question like an elephant in the room remains unanswered.
I am a layman when it comes to design, so mdg's contributions are interesting for me. But I think I can distinguish between "lazy" design ("oh, a Serif font in an otherwise minimalistic watch - ah, lets do it") and the often overengineered attempts at design (think Lange, FP Joune).
My personal belief is that manufacturers once in a while produce a real "stunner", a game-changing "unicorn". But they also make some quite average stuff, some questionable facelifts when a product moves on in its lifecycle (see Acquanaut, now in precious metal and with all sorts of complications, only diamonds on the dial are missing so far).
And that goes for artists, car makers, musicians, watchmakers and so on. They have their ups and downs and Amy Whinehouse moments (think of Mercedes in the 2000s). They want to become something what they are not, they are tired of singing the songs which made them famous, or they cant come up with good new ones.
I would not want to be in T. Stern's shoes, with an impressive history of "game changers" in the product line. How is he going to even continue, if not even exceed that greatness? Carmakers tried to come up with product variations, "marriages" between SUVs and coupes (think BMW's X6 - horror). Stern can "marry" sports watches with complications which were invented earlier. The big "whats next" question like an elephant in the room remains unanswered.
I am a layman when it comes to design, so mdg's contributions are interesting for me. But I think I can distinguish between "lazy" design ("oh, a Serif font in an otherwise minimalistic watch - ah, lets do it") and the often overengineered attempts at design (think Lange, FP Joune).
I am not in a position to say what can be discussed and what can't be discussed.
I think it is very normal to say "I do not like it" but to say "it is badly designed" is already a matter of taste. Not an objective statement.
Best, Kari
Noone said "badly designed"
Mdg just pointed out some minor flaws in the dial's font.
That's the center of their discussion
It is a matter of taste and not an objective issue.
What is an aesthetical standard at one time may change at another time. Hence, what was true at one time (proportions, what kind of patterns match together and which one don't etc...) can be inaccurate later.
When we talk about "flaws", it is relative to a specific standard.
One example: colours combinations
Italians wear colourful clothes with very fine taste. At other periods of time, in other countries it may not have been so. Usually, in a more classical version, it was 1 or 2 colours at the maximum. It is not so since a few years.
Another example: pattern associations.
No pees with squares. Since a few years, the fashion has changed and there are much more appealing combinations. Today we can have nearly everything at the same time. As long as it is done the nice way.The "nice way" is regarding the standards of a specific time.
Hence, fonts associations, colors, sizes are all elements that evolve from a period to the other. Thus, why we say and why Kari says it is subjective, especially when on such forum we have people from different age and living in different regions of the world.
For instance, I like 1970's decoration style and I like the Art deco interior colors and style as well. I can discuss and share with people who have the same approach but the beginning of the differences starts when I talk with people who are shaped by other periods of time, because of their age or because of the experience, education (in the cultural sense) they know. This doesn't make the Art Deco or 1970's style better than another. We can talk of significant changes, originality etc... but it is irrelevant to say that 1990's is better or worse than the late 1890 period.
That's what people may not understand easily at first.
We all have our favorite and it is nice discussing our tastes as long as we can take that aspect into account.
We don't talk about this because of forum rules, as you keep on refering too as if it was censorship, it is just trying to open new ways of seeing things, trying, encouraging to have a different point of view.
Not being able to say that we like a watch because people judge what is good taste or not, that's a kind of censorship.
That doesn't mean that everything works but that there may be much more than one thinks.
And especially not being so sure of our own taste as a reference.
Best, Mark
The problem is there
I don't believe there is such thing as absolute ideal design. There is just a standard design at one time. And the history is full of examples of designs that were great back then but are now outdated.
It is one thing to find something we don't like, it is another believing our tastes are the reference.
You wrote about sizes, like if you know what is the right one. The problem is that it is forgetting that we've been shaped by our environement (cultural, social etc...). We don't have our tastes by choice or by a selection, even if we can influence it by going a way or another. When you chose, you decide to follow what people you wish to look like. That's what makes the aesthetcial elements you wish to consider as good and the ones you consider are not.
Sizes are subjective too as it depends on the wearer's wrist size and on the watches sizes we are used to seeing in a region of the world or another. A 38mm classical watch on a 19mm wrist may look feminine for instance, so saying 38 is the perfect size has no sense.
You have your taste, I like the late 1990 and early 2000 eras too, but design evolves because some artists, designers, architects, or any influencial people create at one time or another something that explores a new way. Often, they are not understood at the beginning and after a long while everyone is an expert and says that's the thing.
Everyone has its own tastes and should be respected, especially since it is a subjective matter, an aspect that many don't understand.
How many people complained about the 3700 in 1976? How many people complained with the new Calatrava cases with the 5107 etc... when they were launched (nothing comparable to the previous 1950's to 1970's models).
And now, people say the 1990-2000 was a wonderful era. No brand have stood still, that's what people tend to forget. They want that their favorite colelctions remain on and on but they never did and they should never do, or less and less people will appreciate them.
Please try to understand that people have different approaches and that your standrards may not be the only reference 
Thanks.
Best, Mark
#super #letsnothavedifferentopinions
Will share a pic of my mocca latte and cupcake soon #starbucks
It is not a problem of having a different opinion, that's what we encourage sharing
But there is a big difference between talking about our tastes, the way we see things, and expressing as if we have the truth and good taste hence all that doesn't satisfy us is bad taste.
You should understand how people having another opinion may feel when reading such comments.
Everyone can say he doesn't like a watch but saying this watch is really ugly and is bad taste is not that nice reading for people who actually like it. Especially since there is not absolute reference in what is nice looking, good taste or not.
That seems quite basic to me. There are a lot of members here expressing their reserves on references but they do it with repect to what others may think. That's what a community is about.
Imagine we are like a club where people like to meet and spend time together: you wouldn't like a few come here and don't repsect other's opinions.
That's the only thing I'm talking about.
Best, Mark
Well
I do understand the politically correct concept of a "safe space" but:
What if people saying this watch is really nice and is good taste - isn't that not that nice reading for people who actually don't like it??
What if people saying this watch is really nice and is good taste - isn't that not that nice reading for people who actually don't like it??
The difference is that people who say it is nice don't say that people who think otherwise are people without tastes.
It is one thing to say "I don't like it, I prefer the other kind".
It is another to say something like "it's very ugly and of very bad taste".
Especially since most of the elements we talk about are subjective (I explained it in my previous answers), like sizes, this or that details etc...
It is just common sense and social behaviour.
Case closed for me.
Best, Mark
Thanks for such a great report, now my take is...
Amazing photos.
Love the 5131P and the bracelet. The black dial 5960A is a game changer for me as I was not a fan of the white dial. 5170P looks fantastic.
Now for the 5230G, I like it but I think that it is trying a bit too hard to look vintage. So great additions here but I am not sure about this one and I am looking for further dials/hands variations.
Overall feeling about this Baselworld: oh let's give them something vintage - it will sell. Omega, Longines, Tudor, Oris, Blancpain etc... did it too, just the flavor of this edition, maybe too many anniversaries.
Thanks & Best.
Love the 5131P and the bracelet. The black dial 5960A is a game changer for me as I was not a fan of the white dial. 5170P looks fantastic.
Now for the 5230G, I like it but I think that it is trying a bit too hard to look vintage. So great additions here but I am not sure about this one and I am looking for further dials/hands variations.
Overall feeling about this Baselworld: oh let's give them something vintage - it will sell. Omega, Longines, Tudor, Oris, Blancpain etc... did it too, just the flavor of this edition, maybe too many anniversaries.
Thanks & Best.
Thanks for your comments.
I mostly agree. But about 5230G my thought are that Patek said: "Let's give them an exceptionally readable perpetual".
Best, Kari
Thank you, a real treat!
its no small feat taking all these pictures , organizing and posting.
Very much appreciated
Sincerely
H.
P.s. My next watch looks even better in your pics than the ones
I have seen thus far.
Thanks you very much for this exceptional report. The photos are very impressive...
... and the watches receive aesthetic justice through them.
So much better than what I saw from other sources so far. Excellent!
And the 5320 is to die for!
Cheers
Henrik
A stellar Basel showing for Patek
Up and down the line-up are potential classics. All the grand comps. 5320 maybe just the right combo of a modern and vintage-feel perpetual. And look at the detail in the casework of this reference. 5178 with cathedral gongs, cream enamel dial, and Breguet numerals is sublime. Add in the 5131P and 5170P--beautiful watches. The bracelet of the 5131P is a surprise and a statement.
The blue dial Aquanauts look very, very nice.
Add that only a few months ago Patek also introduced the anniversary Nautilus watches. Don't think I have seen a better concentration of new watches.
This is why Patek is Patek.
Thank you for the fantastic pictures, Kari!
I, as many, have enjoyed them a lot. Regarding the 5320: albeit looking very traditional the fact that the case is stamped out of one piece and also that the movement contains silicon parts makes this reference a totally
modern watch. Also the size. However: the design and the domed sapphire is to die for and makes it, with all the luminova, a very good daily companion.
Regarding your future 5131 P: I mean who else should be able to get one? There are only some very few people here who are in the position to get on and you are clearly amongst them.
Generally the novelties of 2017 are all great pieces!
Best
Moritz
Thank you! Your kind words mean a lot.
I totally agree with what you said about the perpetual.
I do not know if I will get 5131P but I try.
Best
Kari