F.P. Journe

Trip # 2 to Switzerland for my new Centigraphe and I've barely owned it for a few months. Now comes the long wait all over again. The last piece I bought was a Resonance, it left the factory without ever having someone wind the watch! The stem was made to short. All watch companies shoud have a policy of prioritizing repair of watches that break down within 60 days of purchase over new sales. Sorry for the tone of my post, it's frustrating.

it's the worse occasion one has to go through, made iworse going through it twice! unbelievable.

I heard about a few complains on FPJs and I hesitated getting one, but it wasn't really a show stopper for me and when I chanced upon my piece, I seemed to have overlooked /forgotten about these and jumped on. I guess for some problematic ones out there, they are probably more perfectly running ones too.

Hope you get better response from them soon and I hope you continue to love these watches when you resolve your situations.

Cheers

Mech.

I just bought a unique watch and the day after I had to sent it to be repaired
try to be positive about it.... there is nothing else that you can do
Cheers

frankly am quite surprised of BOTH of your mishaps with Journe watches. Seems almost impossible since my amateur understanding is that their watches all undergo strict quality control before leaving the factory AND are used/tested for at least 3 days in the Boutiques before being sold/given to customers. Nevertheless, kindly update us when your Centigraphe is returned and whether it has been fixed accordingly, gratis I am assuming since its still new/under warranty.

Hi

It boils down to dissecting the term INVENIT ET FECIT

While I have the greatest admiration for FP Journe as an inventor, I believe that his company is yet to master the art of manufacturing and customer service. It will be incorrect on our part as customers to simply accept lack of quality control as "something to be natural and to be borne silently".

FP Journe watches are priced extraordinarily high and one expects that such price is paid not just for the novelty of a unique complication such as the Resonance or the Dead Beat Seconds etc; but equally for the quality and the long years of trouble-free operation that the customer/collector expects to receive.

FPJourne would perhaps be better off having his patents transformed into reliable production watches by a more solid manufacturers such as Audemars or Jaeger. This way, he can continue to invent, but let the watch collectors receive better and reliable FPJ watches.

For FPJ , it would be best to stick to INVENIT and not INVENIT ET FECIT...

 

Narsi

 

And hope that the problem is very soon rectified.

Mech, I agree with your post.

Narsi, I am sorry but I have to disagree with you, I am very pleased that FP Journe's Invent & make their own watches.

If his beautiful timepieces were made by somebody else, I now probably wouldn't own one.

did you manage to pay a visit to your AD to have a look see on them? update please

Mech.

One of the first serious watches I purchased was an FP Journe as I was truly impressed with the innovation of the brand. However, my watch had a few teething problems that were resolved professionally and quickly (especially compared to the norms/lengthy service times of the swiss watch industry). It did however cause me significant pause about acquiring a second FPJ. However, as the years have past, and my collection grown... I have had to send a couple of watches from more mainstream and 'independents' back for service for a glitch so it is certainly not limited to FPJ nor do I really believe that 'problems' are significantly more prevalent with this manufacture versus others who launch limited production/new calibers.

I think it lies with the fact that FPJ seems to be launching quite a few calibers/innovations at a rapid rate and if we want to be a first adopter it is possible that we face more problems than watches using tried and true calibers. For example, as a modest PP collector when I purchased my 5980 & 5960p, I did so knowing that past owners had several problems with this new caliber (ones that were for the large part resolved). So I can assure you that FPJ isn't alone in working through the growing pains of new innovations.

That all said; I agree the turnaround time is far too long (we would not tolerate if our ferraris or porsches were 'in service' for 3 months), I fear it is the price we pay to be on of the first to wear a new innovation of any manufacturer.

Hope you receive your Centigraph back very soon and in perfect working order.

best,

OpC

One lesson I have learnt,when a brand introduces a  watch that is complicated and it doesnt appear for over a year at dealerships or boutiques and i do not count one piece in tokyo or wherever there is a decent chance the early models could have problems.

If you go back three or four years there were plenty of posts regarding issues with the original journe chrongraph a lot less complex than this one.

I have considered this piece myself and am curious regarding more details of your experience. 

 

Though we do all have to realize that a small percentage of the time our mechanical art will need repair.

At first I feared having my post deleted, because it amounted to a complaint in a domain where praise is everywhere. So, thank you Brad, et al, for allowing this thread. Having settled down a bit, let me say that I love Journe's watches; why else would I have been so passionately peeved? I was one of the first to buy the original Tourb ... still my most accurate watch. The Resonance crown stem problem was odd, but Journe fixed it, and the AD gave me a nice compensaton gift. As for the Centigraphe, I fully accept the early adopter asumption of the risk ... I did receive one of the first pieces, and I have no doubt Journe will fully repair it in due course. The reasons I love Journe pieces: independence, style, technical boldness ... and 'invented and made' by someone who, in a few short years, built a brand and cult-like following like no other watchmaker in history.

A nicely constructive and positively written reply.

Unfortunately, you're not the first to suffer from lack of
reliability of the recent Journes. It does seem like the
Octa line was better made and more reliable. Most likely
this is because enough time has passed for the Octa to have
any bugs worked out. For this reason, it can be frustrating
buying the latest Journes.

Journe is not the only brand that does not do adequate testing
to ensure reliability before releasing their watches to the
public. Very few brands care enough about reliability to
make sure they only sell very high quality reliable watches.
In the auto market there is a much higher expectation of quality.
So, most car makers these days take great pains to ensure that
manufacturing defects are rare. Sadly, the watch market does not
have the same expectations. Journe and others know that watch
enthusiasts will suffer the ups and downs of owning the latest
watch that has yet to be debugged. Rather than take the time to
test such watches before selling them, Journe and other can
release their watches sooner and begin reaping profits sooner,
knowing that the first customers will bear the burden of debugging
their latest watches.

If you have the patience to own the latest watch, I'm sure eventually
the problems will be worked out, but it can be frustrating. But,
for anyone who does not have the tolerance to help Journe debug his
latest creations, I'd suggest sticking with more established
models like the Octa. An added benefit is that you can buy them
on the secondary market for a fraction of what they sold for new.
Eric von Schonberg

In fact, my first thought when I saw the Centigraphe was.... nice watch.... but the first bunch aren't going to work just right.... so you'll need to wait

Now, why would that be my first reaction?

Experience?

Note well, this is not just Journe. This is endemic to the boutique watch business.

It's also true in the very high end home audio business, which most consist of ma & pa businesses like FP Journe. I eventually decided that the incremental sound quality, if it was there at all, was not worth the cost in unreliability compared to more mass-produced products.

If you turn out products in very small numbers, you simply cannot achieve the kind of robust production quality and reliability that manufacturers who make very large runs will achieve. There's just no way. So reliability issues for these types of products is a fact of life.

I don't know about FPJ, but in other manufacturers the workers jokingly refer to some of these products as "green bananas." As in, sold before they are really ready.

Cash flow is an issue and new products=a jolt to cash flow. So there is pressure to get them out.

FPJ does set extremely ambitious targets for himself, so you need to give him a bit of leeway.

On the other hand, FPJ has made a conscious decision to move beyond the "invenit and fecit" watch enthusiast crowd towards the realm of high fashion, as exemplified by his trendy boutiques in the all the most fashionable locations, all the very trendy androgynous people who seem to attend the openings and the parties, etc.

And that's where you need to start getting more careful about product quality issues, when you've gone beyond the cheerful hobbyist to the fashion-conscious consumer. That's where reliability issues will kill you.

Let me share my story with you all.

I purchased a Centigraphe back to early Januray this year and it made me one of the first group of proud owners of this unique timepiece. But, I sent it back to AD the next day due to some unusual problems I discovered from my "test-drive". According to the AD, those problems were so unusual that no one had seen them before. So it seemed to be a serious challenge to Mr. Journe. Well, almost two months later, the watch returned to my wrist. Obviously, Mr. Journe solved those problems.

But I kept trying. This time I turned the chrono function on and let it continue to run so as to measure how long the watch could run with the chrono function on and whether it would affect the accuracy. I tried twice and both results disappointed me so I sent the watch back to the AD again. Yesterday I was told by the AD that the watch was still on the desk of Mr. Journe, and hopefully the watch can come back to me within the next few weeks.

So how do I feel about it?

First of all, I dont feel upset. Most grand complication watches are fragile. If you dont seriously play with it, you will not know how easily this kind of micro mechnical monster can go wrong. Unfortunately, most watch collectors tend to keep rather than play so some problems remain uncovered until a few years later. So we should be well prepared to have problems with grand complication watches, especially those equipped with "revelutionary" movements such as Centigraphe or  Duometer a Chronographe.

Secondly, I feel quite fun. Invention or innovation is always a process. Watch masters initiate ideas and take the lead to turn the ideas into products by putting a few hundred non-standard parts together. But they will never know how reliable their ideas can be and what sort of side-effects will emerge until users tell them. Unfortunately, a lot of prototypes come to an untimely end as watchmakers fail to continue the improvement process. But I am confident that FPJ will continue to improve the movement of Centigraphe and it becomes a joy for being part of the invention process.

Just my humble opinion. By the way, I miss my toy so I really hope Mr. Journe will not take his summer vacation until he ships the watch back to me.

Zhiming

 

 

that you will get it soon
Cheers

I had my Centigraphe for one week and off it went back to Mr Journe. as a matter of fact; I pass to him when he is visiting HK. No big deal; given this movement is such a ground breaking stuff. I expect to suffer a bit of problem when he start deliving them.

A few years back, I had another FP Journe watch which develope a problem and Mr Journe fixed it in less then 30 days.

I would say given the number of FP Journe watches I own. I only have problem with 2 of them and as such I don't mind.

I do not know how one can go through this sort of exercise and not feel frustrated. In recent years, I have had the bad luck to see several new acquisitions (including a Journe) return to home base for service far too soon after purchase, and I have consistently felt shortchanged by the process. If I wanted to embark on a voyage of discovery with a watchmaker, I would try to find someone worthy who was in need of what little seed capital I could offer or put together. Certainly, if you have had your ear to the ground in this industry for even a little bit of time, you have doubtless heard at least one or two very appealing stories along those lines. I confess that my risk appetite is otherwise; my wallet ditto. By the time yours truly is forking over Journe-level cash, I am denying myself serious utility of some other stripe, and to be told that the watch in the AD's case isn't really going to be on my wrist for another 6 months because it really wasn't ready for prime time in the first place seems akin to a restaurant that can't manage its reservations policy: "Oh, you meant you wanted a table for 8:00 on THIS Valentine's Day! We can't help you until next year, but aren't our tables lovely to look at? Thank you for paying for your meal in advance."

I dont think there is much difference between us.

I can be frustrated and was indeed frustrated a few times for unexpected issues such as a diving watch being drown in a normal swimming pool or perpetual calendar still exhibiting 30th February. I am not frustrated for my Centigraphe only because I was well prepared (even before I purchased the watch). As I have mentioned, it is normal for grand complication watches, particularly those with innovative structures or functions such as Centigraphe, to  have some problems. As long as these problems can be fixed, there is nothing to be frustrated about.

I am not nicer than you. I just manage my expectation a bit differently from you.

Let's enjoy the experience.

Zhiming

Your post is very kind; I am afraid that I would be unfair to you if I didn't say that it is too kind. What you are generous enough to talk about in terms of managing expectations strikes me much more like being an unpaid beta tester. Nobody would stand for that if health or safety issues were involved: there is an entire industry built around the regulatory system designed to address those concerns. Nobody would stand for that if something as essential to most people's everyday life as an automobile were involved: in the US, a large number of states have passed so-called "lemon laws" to protect against that.

But humor me and take one step toward the abstract. In the last 18 months, I have had two perpetual calendars go back for repair within a few months of purchase: one went twice, and i didn't even get an apologetic note from the maker; the other went once, and, as a way of saying they were sorry, the maker offered me a piece of clothing that was unavailable in my size. Both watches had MSRPs over USD40,000, which, while not in Centigraph territory, is, I feel  sure, more than most Americans place as down payments for their first homes, and more than the median purchase price of cars on American roads. I grant you that I am fortunate enough to alreeady own a home and a car, so I did not sacrifice those things to buy the watches, but  it is also true that neither of the men who run the operations that manufactured my defective Perpetuals is doing so on a not-for-profit basis. If either of them wants me to field test their demonstrably incomplete efforts, they can pay me for the privilege, like field testers elsewhere are paid, OR not take my money until they get it right, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, as another poster has already suggested, put the watches that have been paid for and proven defective AT THE VERY FRONT OF THE QUEUE for service, before sending out new pieces into the market that will likely exhibit the same problems.

which watches were they?
Cheers

I would be happy to tell you (or anyone else interested) privately,  but, as angry as I am, I don't think that it is fair publicly to single out particular makers when the problem is not limited to them. I do hope that you will email me if you would like to know.

Regards

Well, I WAS thinking of financing an FPJ, but.......... seems to me that is alot of money for the AD and the Manufacturer to keep while one's watch is being sorted out.  Wonder if the buyer could at least have interest on those funds?!  I am not sure of another profession in which the manufacturer can handle things in this way and the customer just sits tight......it is almost as if the buyer is an "investor" but with no return on that investment other than, hopefully, ultimately receiving what he or she initially paid for whenever it may get repaired.  Manufacturer should certainly extend the warranty for the period the watch was being "repaired", at least.  And, perhaps, tell the customer at the outset "Caveat Emptor".