Comments:
Optimum - Reliability?
Hi All,
I have a friend who is interested in purchasing an Optimum. We were wondering about reliability of the Optimum. As present or past owners of FPJ watches, we know that certain FPJ movements are much less reliable than others, so it's important to gather data about reliability prior to purchasing. I know of one recent instance in which a new Optimum (still at the AD's) stopped running shortly after a person who was interested in buying it had wound it. We weren't sure if this was a fluke occurrence or if others had experienced Optimum issues. Thanks in advance for any comments about the Optimum's reliability based upon your experiences!
This message has been edited by ChristianDK on 2019-03-07 05:10:56 This message has been edited by ChristianDK on 2019-03-07 08:26:32
I have one
Owned it for a few years from new. Though I don't wear it everyday, I have never had problem with its time keeping or experience any stoppage. In fact it feels better made than my Resonance and Tourbillon DS.
I doubt it is a general issue
I can’t comment from a personal perspective since I don’t own this watch. But I do know a couple of owners and they haven’t had any issues. I haven’t heard or read about it from any other source either.
But I agree with your point, that as a collectors forum, it is important to compile information based on personal experiences and knowledge from owners of the watch and not hearsay.
Best
Christian
Opinion as fact?
First off let me stop you at, "we know that certain FPJ movements are much less reliable than others." These types of statements and issues have been discussed many times across multiple brands before and I will not repeat why, without data, they are unhelpfully obfuscational. I am no FPJ fanboy by the way, and yes, there was a reason there was.... and then there was not an FPJ forum here for many years.
Regarding the specific issues related to the Optimum, and I am speculating, there are particular issues in manufacturing variations of Breguet's Natural escapement. The angular realtionship between the position of the escape teeth relative across each wheel as well as precise control of the tolerances of the backlash between the syncronising gears of the escape teeth are critical. This is also a key issue in the coaxial, and Smith elaborated on this recently.
I am not sure of the manufacturing technique Journe uses for these, but if he eschews 'modern methods', which is part of his philosophy of keeping true to traditions of watchmaking and trying to ensure maintainabilty in the future, it is unlikely they are made via nanoesque techniques such as etched nickel phosphorous (compare the FdT developed LF escapement) and hence will be a lot harder to control in production. This may be the one simple reason.
Furthermore, is the nature of these escapements that it is very likely that if it works out of the box, it will work. If it is problematical to keep it running in the AD, it won't 'improve' in use.
Velociphile
Velociphile: Please, Don’t go in to speculation or creating false rumours!
Dear Velociphile
I agree to the first part of your post. Generalizations not built on fact , like the one you point out, are of no help to the collectors community.I tried to make that point in my first response. We welcome personal experiences or data based type of discussions. As well as collectors personal views, as long, as they are kept in a respectful tone.
For the second part of of your post, you then go on to speculating about "Specific issues related to the Optimum" and invent your own story about some issue with the escapement. What issues? We have NOT established any fact of any issues. We have ONE story/rumour - about a watch stopping at an AD. - We dont know what the reason for that was. This is how false rumours begin.
I agree to the first part of your post. Generalizations not built on fact , like the one you point out, are of no help to the collectors community.I tried to make that point in my first response. We welcome personal experiences or data based type of discussions. As well as collectors personal views, as long, as they are kept in a respectful tone.
For the second part of of your post, you then go on to speculating about "Specific issues related to the Optimum" and invent your own story about some issue with the escapement. What issues? We have NOT established any fact of any issues. We have ONE story/rumour - about a watch stopping at an AD. - We dont know what the reason for that was. This is how false rumours begin.
Christian: The challenges of the Natural Escapement (NE) are well known
You make an awful lot of conclusions in that post and I don't need to put up with it.
When I was asking questions about another brand a while back, I was contacted by PM by another collector who interestingly had two different pieces from two different brands that both had versions of the NE and had both suffered escapement issues diagnosed and recognised by the manufacturers. Of course one of these was an Optimum.
It's a beautful piece and I hope to have one someday.
Anyway, I regret that after sixteen years here I am wasting my time. Goodbye everyone.
Velociphile
When I was asking questions about another brand a while back, I was contacted by PM by another collector who interestingly had two different pieces from two different brands that both had versions of the NE and had both suffered escapement issues diagnosed and recognised by the manufacturers. Of course one of these was an Optimum.
It's a beautful piece and I hope to have one someday.
Anyway, I regret that after sixteen years here I am wasting my time. Goodbye everyone.
Velociphile
FPJ has recognized issues with the Optimum...?
It's a bit odd that you're now passing on that FPJ has supposedly recognized and corrected escapement issues with the Optimum, after initially stating that you were only speculating about potential problems. Perhaps mentioning this originally would have avoided the appearance of equivocacy.
Dear Velociphile – In Your original post, In you own words, You are speculating!
Your words: “Regarding the specific issues related to the Optimum, and I am speculating, there are particular issues in manufacturing variations of Breguet's Natural escapement.”
In your next post: You have suddenly heard it from a collector, that this is a recognized fact by FPJ. – So, I am wondering, which one is it?? ;-)
I can only repeat myself: No collector or owner has come forward and stated any issue with their escapement (or other aspect of the watch for that matter). Not a single one!
Also, we cant point to other sources, where a general problem is mentioned.
So - I am not willing to acknowledge your statement as fact based on that. The last thing we want, if we want to remain a serious watch collector forum, is to have hearsay and rumors acknowledged as facts. I think we owe it to each other, to remain as precise - as possible. In fact, you say so yourself, in your opening statement - If I understood it correctly!
Now Im going to go out on a very speculative whim myself here: Could it, perhaps, be that you have misunderstood something? Because, as you say in your headline: “The challenges of the Natural Escapement (NE) are well known.” - Yes – in a historical context – your statement is absolutely correct – that was why Breguet dropped it, after he invented it. It has since been re-designed and implemented by Derek Pratt of Urban Jurgensen, F.P. Journe, Kari Voutilainen and Laurent Ferrier in different forms.
You know full well there are things we can post and things we can’t or shouldn’t. Idem [nt]
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By the way. How can I delete my account?
Sad to end 16 yrs this way. But I’m done here.
I’m not sure I got the meaning of what you are implying..
But feel free to PM me if you wish. I have a big day tomorrow, so if it is lengthy I can’t promise to reply to you right away, but I wil, eventually.
Best
Christian
Best
Christian
Christian, I just got some possible clarification...
After the AD's Optimum was fixed and returned, I asked what the problem was. I was told "balance obstruction." I don't know more than that but will try to find out.
Apologies if my use of "we" was unclear, my friend!...
Throughout my post, I used the word "we" to refer only to me and my collector/friend. I was not using "we" to refer to the general collector community, especially when I wrote, "We know that certain FPJ movements are much less reliable than others." I hope this clarification is helpful, and I certainly did not intend to upset you or speak for you or anyone else when I used the word "we"!
Here is my own story with FPJ and reliability -- just data from one owner (me).
I fell in love with the brand -- the aesthetic -- as soon as I first saw FPJ's watches. That was about 15 years ago. I very much wanted to take the plunge, but I avoided doing so because I kept hearing about reliability and servicing issues from more experienced collectors whom I knew and trusted (and whom I had asked directly, of course, because I don't subscribe to unsubstantiated rumors -- hence the purpose of my original post in this thread).
Finally, in 2015, I could no longer resist the temptation. I decided that life is too short and that I really needed to experience owning and wearing an FPJ timepiece despite what I had heard about reliability issues. So, in a relatively short period of time, I acquired 3 pre-owned FPJ watches: An Octa Calendrier, an Octa Perpetuelle, and a Tourbillon Souverain.
- The Octa Calendrier had been completely overhauled by FPJ immediately before I bought it. In my first 2 years of ownership, I sent it back I think seven (7) times to try to fix the same problem: The month would frequently skip (JAN to MAR, JUN to AUG, etc.), and occasionally the retrograde date would hang up. The dealer who was working with me phrased it really well after I commented that the watch had spent more time with FPJ's servicing department than with me: "Think of it like owning a vacation home: You get to REALLY enjoy it for a few months each year."
- The Octa Perpetuelle stopped running within a few weeks after I bought it (which wasn't upsetting because perhaps it was never serviced), so that went back to FPJ for a complete overhaul too. But after I got that watch back from being completely overhauled, it too had to go back yet again because the month indicator had the opposite problem of my Calendrier: It would get stuck between two months and not fully change.
- The Tourbillon Souverain has been problem-free.
Thankfully, literally everyone I met who works at FPJ was truly wonderful when problems arose. All FPJ staff here in the US were incredibly kind, helpful, and understanding without fail. As a result, when one of the calendar pieces presented a problem, I felt taken care of and respected. Otherwise, if I had been treated poorly or even indifferently after so many problems, I would have sold these watches.
I am now at the point where I accept unreliability of certain FPJ watches as an (unfortunate) aspect of ownership. At this point, I don't expect the Calendrier or the Perpetuelle to function properly for extended periods of time, and I am pleasantly surprised when they do. I don't want to part with them because they are too beautiful, as art. I love them. And I know I am not alone, because one local fellow collector (who is probably reading this now) offered to buy the Calendrier if I ever wanted to sell it, even though he knows about the problematic history and has had his own issues with a different (complicated) FPJ movement. Owning a few problematic FPJ watches has greatly increased my horological frustration tolerance -- something for which I am actually profoundly grateful!
Lastly, on a related note, I find this funny. I was going to get an Elegante a few years ago. I love the look of the Elegante, and I thought to myself, "Not only is this beautiful, but it's QUARTZ, so it couldn't possibly have any reliability issues like my calendar watches did." Just to double-check, I wrote to someone who had bought two Elegantes, to ask about his ownership experiences for my own reassurance and peace of mind. He said he ended up parting with both of them because neither of them reset to the correct time when awakened from their slumber. I couldn't believe it! Rats, foiled again! When I asked an FPJ employee about this, they acknowledged some issues with the early Elegante pieces and said the problems had been rectified to the best of their knowledge. [This is another thing I really love about the FPJ brand: In my experience, their employees are honest about such things.] So if and when I'm ready to get an Elegante, I'll probably post the very same question on a forum like this: "If anyone has owned an Elegante in the last few years, can you please tell me about your experiences with its reliability?" But I promise not to use the word "we" anywhere in that future post! 
Okay, one more thing: Velociphile, PLEASE don't cancel your account. Remember, this is just an internet forum for hobbyists to discuss watches. It's nothing more than that -- nothing to get emotional about. And on a purely selfish note, I don't want to be known as "the guy who started the thread that caused the other guy to cancel his account after 16 years." Please don't do that to me -- I piss off enough people in "real life" and don't want to add fellow Purists posters to that list!
I hope you don't think you can get out of it that easily, my friend ;-) [nt]
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Thank you, CR!
What a really great post!
Thank you, for going in to detail about your experiences with your three watches. Explaining what the problems where, and how they where handled by FPJ -I learned a lot from reading this. I think others will say the same.
An other super interesting point of your post, is your story about your piece that is not perfect, but you still love it. That You have chosen to accept it because ou love that watch, despite that fact. Not everyone would accept to live with that - I will give you points some thought. I am not in a similar situation, but perhaps I can relate, because I can also think of watches in my own collection, of several brands, that are not perfect or have what I think of as design flaws - and I love them in spite of it.
Thank you for sharing your story
Best
Christian
First - no hard feelings regarding your initial post but thank You for the clarification 👍 it clears up a few things.
Thank you, for going in to detail about your experiences with your three watches. Explaining what the problems where, and how they where handled by FPJ -I learned a lot from reading this. I think others will say the same.
An other super interesting point of your post, is your story about your piece that is not perfect, but you still love it. That You have chosen to accept it because ou love that watch, despite that fact. Not everyone would accept to live with that - I will give you points some thought. I am not in a similar situation, but perhaps I can relate, because I can also think of watches in my own collection, of several brands, that are not perfect or have what I think of as design flaws - and I love them in spite of it.
Thank you for sharing your story
Best
Christian
Let me enter the fray.
I have two Journes that have been nothing but reliable; and great timekeepers-the CB and an Octa Lune. I just took possession of my second Centigraphe Souverain. The chronograph hands on the first one would never reset to zero, and so I didn't keep it-it went back to the dealer. And I had a Resonance whose 24 hour dial would never match up with the right hand dial; nor would the minute hand and hour hand match. That went back to the dealer as well. So my experience with the ultra-complicated Journes was not good-similar to CR's, but I didn't keep them.
As I stated above, I decided to take another shot at ownership of the Centigraphe, as it has to be one of the most striking and beautiful watches available. And guess what: the chronograph doesn't always work! However, I think I will follow Craig's lead on this one and keep the piece. The dealer is both a friend and gives a two year warranty even though the watch is pre-owned. I am documenting the problem and if it worsens I'll send it in for service. But it's just too beautiful a watch to chance letting it go again.
Congratulations, Padj! I didn’t know you had this one.
I agree- too good to let go! You have some incredible watches, I am discovering.
Enjoy your weekend with this one
Best
Christian
Thanks for this, Mike. Nice to know I'm not totally alone. I hope...
... the Centigraphe's behavior stabilizes and doesn't worsen. Also, I really appreciate your sharing this because this is the sort of first-hand information about reliability/functionality that I'd like to know if I were considering purchasing a watch with a relatively rare movement.
Of course! No, you're not alone.
I believe my threesome is a very nice sub-collection. I would be very hesitant to go for something more complicated than the Centigraphe at this point. The Calendrier was on my shortlist but your experience, coupled with mine, makes me stop.
Interesting that you had this issue with the Resonance...
In my long post above, I wrote, "...one fellow local collector (who is probably reading this now) offered to buy the Calendrier if I ever wanted to sell it, even though he knows about the problematic history and has had his own issues with a different (complicated) FPJ movement." The unspecified movement to which I was referring -- the one my friend had problems with and caused him to send the watch back -- was the Resonance.
I guessed that!
Wonderful idea, that has to be incredibly hard to pull off. Journe does not walk away from a challenge-the thing I admire, I guess. Think about the complications he has tackled over 20 years, as a one-man idea bank; the only thing missing is to couple a perpetual calendar with another complication, like a chronograph or repeater.
That's what I admire about him as well -- that he's not one to back down from a challenge. [nt]
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