Officine Panerai

some people are taking this too far and are unjustifiably accusing  Panerai of twisting history.

Panerai do not claim, nor is there any historic significance to the Minerva movement in the history of Panerai. All Panerai are pointing to, with a smile, is the anecdotal coincidence of the Orologeria Svizzera buying some Minerva movements.

Panerai never branded pocket watches, but Orologeria Svizzera (which WAS Panerai in the beginning of the 20th century) certainly made pocket watches under the exclusive brand, Eldis. These pocket watches, BTW, did not house Minerva movements.

 

I am stepping down from the soap box now.

 

Asi

Never heard about Panerai Pockert Watches, but it would have been possible with Orologeria Swizzera, of xourse.

So, now as I know that you know the thing ( do you follow me???LOL), we can say that this story of Minerva movement has nothing to see with Panerai History...

And, of course, we know that Panerai never claimed to have used some Minerva movement in its past...

So, all is right, and thanks for bringing to us your lights on this topic, my friend.

Best!

Nicolas

I agree with Asi.

Come on guys, let's just face it.  I'm not afraid to voice my opinion of things.

There really isn't much of a history with Panerai and Minerva.  How many of you guys here associated Minerva with Panerai BEFORE this year's SIHH?  I bet the answer is nobody.  The use of Minerva movements in Panerai watches is more of a "business" decision IMO. 

Montblanc, a brand in the Richemont family, recently bought Minerva so now Minerva is in the Richemont family.  Panerai's in the Richemont family  as well so it gives them easy access to use Minerva movements.  Don't be surprised to see Minerva movements in other Richemont family brand watches in the future.

Also, Richemont recently purchased Roger Dubuis facilities as well as part of Greubel Forsey.  Cartier, also a member of the Richemont family, debuted a Dubuis tourbillon in one of its new watches at SIHH, and GP, also a member of the Richemont family, (thanks for the correction John!  can still use as an example though) debuted the double tourbillon from Greubel Forsey in one if it's new watches at SIHH too. 

Do you guys see the pattern developing?

As a result, I would not be surprised to see Dubuis movements in a limited edition Panerai watch someday in the future.  Will it happen?  Maybe not, but if it does, don't be surprised.

It's all about business, and what Richemont and Panerai are doing would exactly be what I would do as well if I were running the show.  Since Richemont is a public company, you need to show profits for your shareholders.  You use things from one brand and mix it into another so you can maximize # of different models.  Once you decide you're going to use a movement from brand A into brand B's watch, you'll try to connect a link between A and B are part of your marketing strategy.

A past example is the PAM190 with JLC 8-day movement.  JLC is part of the Richemont family as well, so why not put a JLC movement in a Panerai watch?  Panerai's history with 8 day movements is a perfect match with JLC's 8-day movement.

The same thing with Minerva now.  Panerai used Minerva in some timing devices so there's a connection between the 2 brands, hence you see Minerva movements in a couple Panerai models this year.

I'm not here to trash Panerai but here actually to commend them in their efforts because they released interesting models as a result of this mixing.

Simple as that

Cheers,
Anthony

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2008-04-19 08:30:39

Even if I perfectly understand the business reason, it's a bit sad to see a company like Panerai, which is pretending to have a strong link ith its history, fall in these business reasons...

Sad?

You will say, and you will be once again right, that I'm very naive...

I stopped being naive since 2 years now...

But still romantic...LOL

Best.

Nicolas

Nothing remains "pure" once your rise in popularity especially if you have Panerai's huge success.  That's just a fact in the business world.

Panerai can only go so far introducing models associated with its past, and so when they are near exhaustion with these models, you then have to resort to producing models more from a business standpoint even if you have to nudge a little with your marketing because you have to demonstrate growth each year to make shareholders happy.

- Anthony

As this is, indeed a very interesting topic.

I don't understand where Panerai wants to go, and I'm not alone, as I see more and more old guys running form them.

I strongly believe that Panerai can develop a new vision ( for them) of horology and integrate an in house solution, as they do, but in the same time, they use for some few watches a Minerva movement..

Why?

Don't they believe as strongly as that in their in house movements???

Will it be preferable to use these new in house movements in specific cases, rather than putting a tourbillon in a military watch???

Will it be preferable to create a new line of cases for that?

A lot ofd questions, few answers...

But I tink that Panerai will remain strong if they don't deny their past, Their roots and if they find a nice solution to use, in a coherent way, their willing to create some horological watches...

We should create a topic about this...

Best.

Nicolas

 

 

those who have purchased your watches and supported you in the past.  It's all part of the game.  You might lose those oldtimers but you then gain a new customer base.  You're one of the guys who are hardcore original Panerai that I consider you still "stuck in the past "when it comes to Panerai watches.  So you probably won't be happy with most of the new models that get released in the future   I'm correct right?

I'm always one for change and diversity so I like it when brands introduce something different.

Just cause Panerai used Minerva movements doesn't mean they don't believe in their own in-house movements.  There are only so many limited edition models you can make each year with your in-house movements before those models look the same and too similar.  That's why Panerai, IMO, mixed things up and used these Minerva movements in these limited edition pieces.  You can't have all your limited edition pieces using the same in-house movements cause it would be "boring".  You need to make a couple models with some other different movements to make things interesting.

Panerai will always stick to its roots because they're still producing the Historics models with base Unitas movements.  If they ever get rid of these models, that would definitely cause an uproar and I'm pretty sure Panerai will never do this IMO.

Regarding new cases, I asked Bonati this question in my interview with him, and I hopefully will be able to transcribe the interview and finish it this weekend.  Very interesting interview I might say, and I think u guys will love it.  Many of the questions I asked him are questions he's never been asked before

Cheers,
Anthony

Even if I have a little idea...And If I don't wait too much about him...

I remember reading one of his interviews on another forum.

He said...hold on guys, are you ok to hear that?...Ready ???

Ok:

He said that between 1936 and 1997 Panerai just produced 200 or 300 watches, or something like that.

He just forgot that there was around the double of Vintage watches produced, and around 1800 Pre Vendome watches produced between 1993 and 1997.LOLOLOLOL!

Or does he consider that Panerai never existed before Cartier Vendome bought the brand in March '97?

I'm curious to read that interview...

Best.

Nicolas

This message has been edited by amanico on 2008-04-18 22:20:58

all our experts on this fantastic forum.

Best

patrickh

nt

Been on watch overload every day of the week that I keep forgetting that not all brands at SIHH are Richemont.  Thanks for correcting me John!

Cheers,
Anthony

confirming Panerai's past use of Minerva's movement. While this is misinformed, it plainly looks like a willingness to say anything that people want to hear.

We've known for many years that there isn't any connection with Minerva.

The words of many may come off as attacks to Panerai only for one reason, they themselves aren't communicating with the aficionado, or what information is out there is just vague enough to leave room for speculation. Why is this? Agenda? Marketing?

Why not question the only thing in the minds of the majority? Simply put, Panerai is asking too much money for a simple watch with a simple unrelated movement. Now this is not an attack, it is just the way it is.

And I'm a bit sad that BH Boutique said that...I always heard that the BH Boutique was " La creme de la Creme"

if these two models are going to  be distributed only through the panerai boutiques? Thx

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"Panerai is asking too much money for a simple watch with a simple unrelated movement"

Sorry but I can't justify the 18000 euro for the 203 neither. The movement isn't beautifull, it is't very good finished and it is a simple 3 hands watch. Now, if all that historic BS can justify that price, I don't get it.  imo 18 K for a Minerva is cheaper than 18K  for that Angulus.

It was the same movement than in the Vintage 6152/1 with the small seconds, and yes, we can think about its value, too high ( or too low if we consider the prices in the auctions or grey market...100 K euros!!!), but you're not wrong, Bruno, we can wonder...
BUT, while the Minerva doesn't have any link with History, the Angelus does have this link, as it's excalty the same than the one used on some Vintage pannies...
It's easier to justify the price on the 203, and more difficult for the 309/322...IMHO, of course.
Best.
Nicolas

and i am talking for the 203. If it was a production ss watch with power reserve none would pay that much when it was introduced!

We all see the very high prices at auctions. For example we see pp watches that are 20 years and older not complicated and people do pay high prices. I am sure it has to do with the rareness of the watches.

Thanks

Alepos

I don't know yet how good or bad that Minerva movement will be made / finished but if it would be a superior piece I would say it's worth a lot more than the Angulus. If Panerai would offer those titanium Rads with a Philippe Dufour movement, I think nobody would say they are too expensive. Even when it's only a titanium watch with 3 hands.

So yes, I think the movement is very important.

Why is a Lange or patek much more expensive than a Rolex ? All 3 of them will charge a lot for the name on the dial but the biggest difference is the level of finishing so why would it be wrong if Panerai wants to offer a very high end piece with a superior movement.

that  the luxury watch prices have anything to do with logic?

I thought only feelings and passion can move a reasonable adult to pay anything above $200.

 

To understand a passion, one must first be educated. The 203 is not selling for 5 times the MRSP because people are idiots. The collectors are just passionate, and when one is in that state, don't seek the logic. I went through years of collecting Panerai until I could appreciate, first pre-V and then vintage watches. To me, having a 50 year-old Angelus movement with the understated beautiful finish, housed in a 1950 47mm case - is more beautiful than any refined Patek at that price level.

 

Cheers,

Asi

 

 

Well 200 is a bit low for high end pieces

But your right about the fact that some prices are not logical. On the other hand, imo a Journe CS which is also availbalbe for about 18K is a lot more watch than the 203. I'm only talking about the watch, not the passion.  So buying this Journe is imo not so unlogical.

Are those who pay 5 times te MRSP for a 203 idiots ... I don't want to offend somebody buy imo they are and those who aren't are speculators. Besides, the 50 or is it 60 K euro is imo not the real price. I wonder how much the price would drop if somebody could put 20 of those watches on the market. How many of those are sold for 50-60 K ? A few ??

Maybe it's just an ordinary pump and dump. If one were rich enough to buy let's say 100 PAM249, you could try the following trick. Keep those watches untill the last 249 has been delivered. Than put a few of them on the market WAY above listprice. Nobody will buy them because other pieces offered by other people will be cheaper. Wait a little bit untill those 'cheaper' ones are almost sold. Than 'use' antiquorum and Sothebys.  Put 3 of your 249 for sale via such an auction house and make sure they will fetch a high price, a very high price. You can always bid on those pieces together with a friend. At the end the only cost you make is the commission for the auction house, because you bought your own watch back.

People will talk about those prices and that's when you can start selling all your pieces.

150 pce 209/233 - I bet you can always try if you like to gamble a bit.

It's not nice for the real enthusiasts and collectors but when people smell money, strange things happen

And about the 8days Angulus movement,  guys, this is a 3 year old watch and thats it. It's not because they claim to have found 150-200 old movements in the cellar or attic that whe have a real vintage piece. Who sais they will never make those movements again ? When I make furniture from wood which is 200 years old I'm not making antique furniture  , right

The divers who wore these tools were a courageous bunch, fighting a losing war with minimal resources, but great ingenuity and valor. Panerai provided the instruments that made the difference between success and death. There's a sense of humanity and connectedness with these watches that is extremely personal. The recent book on the Vintage watches makes the connection between the watches' ownership, and the history behind each piece. When a collector has the opportunity of owning a piece like the 203 with the same movement as used in many of these missions, well it must be a great feeling. Owning a vintage piece is simply extraordinary, owning one with recorded history and linkage is like having a direct line to one of these divers. This is isn't logical, is emotional, very human and completely unique to Panerai. Also this is the reason why the passionate Risti may seem so ilogical at times, paying over $100k for a three year old watch with an old movement as you say. It is too the reason many of us balk at the introduction of unrelated items into the historic pieces (Minerva), and balk as well at the introduction of gimmickry to the brand. The Purists of this brands don't care about the Tourbillons and newly introduced complications. I suppose there is a big market out there for people who may want a Panerai with a new Renaud and Papi movement. Panerai knows this and its moving and innovating here, is all business. The history, well they can't change that

There are indeed 2 distant, very distant worlds between the Old Panerai Guys and the others, those who like the esthetic of Panerai and who don't care about Panerai and its roots...
The 1st are sad, the other happy, or let's say, satisfied, with the actual offer made by Panerai.
That's it, that's all.
I recently had the opportunity to wear a 3646...And I can swear that I was shivering like a virgin...LOL
We have to admit that this is difficult ot understand for those who discover more or less recently this brand.
Best, my old friend.
Nicolas

the 309 and 322 as simply being in the line of expensive Panerai SE produced with a variety of movements

47, 147 (a retail of USD 49,000!) and 158 with Venus

67 with Lemania (USD 25,500)

78 with Omega (USD 22,800)

Even if 309/322 are not gold/platinum cases, with the fall in USD exchange over the years, I don't "get" the idea that there has been a sudden massive price hike

They are not going to make large SE like 127, 232 and 249 every year and I guess expectations would have been lowered (at least amongst some paneristi) if they had done the 249/262 in 2006 and waited until this year for the 232.

Since the 209/322 and 26 are sold out, can't argue with their marketing strategy

 

A continuation of these special rads, like the Pam 80 was too with its Chezard movement...

Best.

Nicolas

 

fro the paneristi fervor imho. there isnt much discussion about minerva movements in montblanc (i for one find it ironic that they're celebrating 150 years of minerva with a montblanc brand on the dial/crown etc - i understand the commercial rationale but ..). at any rate, its good that there is disclosure so we at least  know whats under the hood.