Glashütte Original

I ponder this distinction often, and while I can say in most cases I know it when I see it, as Justice Potter Stewart famously said about pornography, I don't think this is a helpful or informative definition. I'd like to hear how others articulate the difference. Looking forward to everybody's thoughts.

m

. . . please clue us in for the benefit of the forum. Note to forum readers: I had a conversation with Meehna yesterday on this topic so I understand the point she's trying to make, but without the full context, it would be difficult for anyone else to make heads or tails out of it. This will be an interesting thread once the question is fully framed . . . cordially, Art This message has been edited by Dr No on 2009-07-26 21:14:20

Yesterday, I had the pleasure of getting together with like-minded watch nuts such as myself. Art (the man aka Dr. No) and I got in a discussion about the difference between the brands Lange & Glashutte. Art said that Glashutte represents more the craft of watchmaking, while Lange represents the art. Please, correct me if I'm wrong here, Art.

That lead to the musings about the definitions of art and craft as it applies to watchmaking. I hope the context will inspire some interesting discourse.

m

In the scope of this discussion, I think of craft as the technology, the expertise, the methodologies, and the science of making the watch. Art (No. Not Dr. No ) in my mind is something that evokes a strong emotion - perhaps something beautiful, something aesthetically pleasing. Both Glashutte and Lange share a lot on the craft side due to their common background and history. While both share many common things on the art side too, I think that Lange has placed a special emphasis on art than Glashutte - perhaps due to the difference price points that they play in or the company's philosophy.

J.

. . . many thanks, Art

. . . the distinction between "art" and "craft" before to illustrate my thoughts on the matter. The "art" of watchmaking, in the sense that I'm using it, has more to do with attention to detail in terms of finishing, while the "craft" is concerned with matters of design and construction; the "craft" is a necessary and sufficient condition in and of itself, while the "art", from my perspective, is superfluous - nice, perhaps, but superfluous nonetheless. That's a personal value judgement, of course . . . others value art as an end in itself, and for those, Lange has much to offer. In that vein, though, my preference in watches that are made to the highest level of the watchmakers art would be those made by watchmaker-artists - Dufour, Voutilainen, McGonigle, et al. Serial art is interesting but not compelling, in my humble opinion. There are many reasons why I'm drawn to the watches of Glashütte Original, and one of them is that I feel they represent the best effort across the board aesthetically and mechanically possible for watches made in series production . . . cordially, Art

Thank  you to both Dr. No and JMan for the great craftsmanship they put into their artful answers.
m

When I was at primary school we did “Art and Craft”. They were never separate and they were certainly never “versus”. A good watch has to have both.

 

‘Finish’ seems to be what many consider as the ‘arty’ side of the equation. This of course evolved, to a large degree, from functional finishing allowing moving parts to move with low friction or trap debris from wear (Geneva stripes). The addition of display backs to show the watch movement and finish is a recent phenomenon, although some watches in the past were very well finished as well.

 

The craft side seems to relate more to movement architecture, innovative design and the introduction of useful features, be they mechanical complications or novel ways to display information.

 

In a cost-no-object watch I would expect to have art and craft in equal measure, but we know that all ‘real world’ (well my world anyway) watches have compromises. Which brands and watches get this balance right is something that each of us has to assess. For me, JLC and GO are brands that manage this balance well. However I have had many discussions about the Reverso Grand Date and the finish on the nicely designed Cal 875 and clearly not everyone thinks JLC got this balance correct for this watch.

 

Thanks for bringing up the interesting distinction and discussion, Meehna and Art.

 

Regards

 

Andrew

. . . produces watches devoid of the watchmakers art. The conversation yesterday started as a query from Meehna as to how I felt Glashütte Original compared to Lange, and my answer was that I feel the emphasis at G O is on perfecting the craft of watchmaking, and even though I didn't say so at the moment, with an attendant focus on the finer aspects of movement finishing without making it an end in itself. One can choose to own a work of art they can wear on their wrist, of course . . . it's a matter of personal preference. I just happen to be comfortable with the balance that G O achieves, especially when value is factored into the equation . . . cordially, Art

i can't help but think that there's the episteme/techne (frequently translated as knowledge/knack) distinction lurking in the background here.  among plato's examples in the gorgias there was the distinction between medicine and cookery in which the cook had skill, but the doctor had the deeper understanding of principles. 

and, on the other hand, i also wonder to what extent the appeal to the idea of "art" isn't a bit of mystification that was an object of debunking among the cognoscenti of the 70s and 80s because of its elitist overtones.

i'm not calling anyone elitist, i'm just kind of intrigued by this distinction being raised here that has been the subject of philosophical inquiry for a long, long time.  and it is rather nice to see it invoked in the context of watches.

chris

. . . and thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify what might easily seem to be a broad and careless distinction. Certainly, both A L & S and G O are highly capable manufacturers with a surfeit of technical capability; that A L & S manages to never miss an opportunity in exploiting the most arcane and complex solution to a problem may very well be seen as an indication of superior competence (vis a vis the industry, and not just G O) by some, but not by myself; one of the aspects of G O's product development that I respect is their penchant for arriving at the most elegant technical solution possible within the context of the current state of the mechanical arts without resort to complexity as an end in itself. That's a long-winded way of saying that by comparison, it seems to me that A L & S tends to produce complex mechanical systems with a view that there is intrinsic value in complexity. Generally speaking, I tend to weigh complexity against performance while keeping value in mind, and I find it difficult to justify intricate implementations which add to cost out of proportion to objective benefit.

Similarly, both manufacturers imbue their movements with very high levels of hand finishing; that A L & S has deliberately set out to manufacture movements that are distinguished by exceedingly high levels of refinement is not at issue, but here again, I find myself weighing the results in the balance. The benefits seem to me almost purely aesthetic, which again is a matter of personal preference; my sense is that given roughly equivalent mechanics (such as between the Dato and the Pano), the distinguishing difference in finishing between the two manufacturers is simply not worth the additional premium.

The nub of the issue is the spectrum encompassing the relative and absolute levels of craftsmanship and artistic effort . . . my preference is for the balance struck by the product designers at Glashütte Original, who I feel have consistently aimed at providing the highest quality of mechanical competence and artistic merit possible commensurate with value. Cordially, Art

is no right or wrong answer here.

One may debate for art & craft for Lange and GO

I love both brands and consider that they excel in both art & craft- some may debate that Lange is more arty but GO has sever models that will beg to differ. As for the craft the reverse is also true.

I had refrained from posting a comment thus far for the above reasons- if you ask me to chose between the two brands based on art and craft I would not be able to do so.

Cheers

. . . might be interpreted in absolute terms; the distinction between 'art' and 'craft' was not meant to be taken as a dichotomy, but rather as a difference in emphasis, and a nuanced one at that. Frankly, these sorts of issues always make me slightly uncomfortable . . . they're so broad that it's almost impossible to discuss them on an internet forum with the brevity that the medium commands. Cautiously, Art

agree with your comment

Cheers

… and the discussion has been very interesting.

 

I enjoyed this thread.

 

Andrew

Hi Chris,

Thanks for bringing in another example for context. Leave it to dear old Plato to bring up a question still on our minds today. It's clear that no matter in what discipline or industry the admirers, experts, etc., enjoy gathering to ponder and classify the results. The discourse and discovery is part of the fun, in my opinion.
m

Yoiu don't happen to work in a respected watch purveyor's shop located in Hartford.,Connecticut, do you???

Hello db darien,

Alas, I am not Meleena but Meehna, and I reside in Los Angeles. I cannot even claim to have been in Hartford, Connecticut. Though I don't work for a respected watch purveyor in Connecticut, I do believe my employers very respectable and I hold them in high regard : )  I am a watch journalist and consultant; however, I identify first and foremost as a certifiable watch enthusiast (interpret "certifiable" as you wlll). And, of course, a huge fan and member of the purists community.

I really enjoyed this thread and thank everyone who contributed their passion, opinion and information.

m

I must respectfully disagree with most of you. Although not expressed on canvas I need only look upon a master craftsman at work to know that good craftsmanship IS art. I hope you can forgive me but I feel strongly that many cannot recognize it for what it is, or at least what I believe it to be. Mike