Omega

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  Hi all.

  Today, I bought a 2254- 18 jewels on fleabay. I need more info about the watch and here are the pics.

 

   Is it a military watch ? a pilot watch ?  Any relation with RCAF , 18 jewels ?  

  Best.

 Hoi.

 

Interesting subject Hoi.

Somewhere between 1993/95 in discussion with people from the museum in Bienne, I was surprised to learn that Omega was able already in 1941 to supply the 30mm movements (both the classic and SC version) with up to 18 jewels. Never heard off or, let alone, seen before anywhere!

Approx. 1½ years later an 18-jewelled Omega was available at auction in Germany. Could this be real or rather a misprint? Unfortunately the watch could not be opened for a quick check since the 'official' watchmaker was not present at the time. So I bought the watch on condition to be able to return it in case of a possible omission. Once in the car I curiously slid off the back and lo & behold: 18 jewels!

With the expectation that this had to be something special (very few pieces made), I showed it at the museum but their reaction was hardly luke-warm. "Yes, we' ve made these" they said, "but don' t over-estimate the technical importance, this little extra stone hardly improves the overall quality - the de Luxe Chronometer case (2254) however is very attractive". So, which customer would require this specification at an extra cost? It turned out that Ken Hatch Ltd. the Canadian agent in Quebec had ordered 500 pieces in 1941 (with follow-on orders a little later). Due to the difficult war conditions however, shipping took only place end '44 and early '45.

And now to the end-user, who were they? In my mind I could see a railway use (like Canadian Pacific). Through history these companies have always required top-quality watches and were willing to pay for that. Also the "anti magnetic" message on the dial should be minded. But the rather 'military'-look dial on these watches makes little civilian-user sense in that respect.

RCAF then? Military Commands have the habit of not spending any money at unneccessary frills - take a look at RAF, RAAF, RNZAF watches: no gilded plates, no Incabloc, only standard movements, nothing but the required accuracy and durability. So, 18 jewels? hardly imaginable, let alone a de Luxe casing. Admittedly, there are also 18 j. in standard cases around. But why are these not marked with an 'RCAF' number at the back (like the single-pusher 2221 models)? All government property should be clearly recognizable.

A few years back I happened to be in Montreal. Little time available, a few jewellers Omega watchshops were visited to ask some questions. Utterly hopeless, they even were not familiar with the 30mm movement...

cheers, Ben.

 

 The reason I asked if it is a pilot watch or a RCAF, because not too long ago, I bought this

   

  

  It was listed as "OLD MILITARY OMEGA WATCH BLACK DIAL 30SC T2 WW2 PILOT" from a seller in Toronto Canada.
  Ai first, I doubted that it was one from RCAF until Gator showed me the link and this old poster from Bill.

    omega.watchprosite.com

    

 

      I compared the watch to the poster and "assume" that it is. That's why I bought another one yesterday, which has the same dial but different case style.
 

     Well, I hope when I have it in my hands, I will take more pics and share with you, the 18 jewels 30T2 SC's  that have the same dials but in different cases.

   Best.

  Hoi.

Hi Hoi

I was bidding on that one myself!!   The fixed lugs were not correct for that case.( to the best of my knowledge).   I actually had both the snapback that was in the Canadian RCAF Omega ad and the screwback case style.   I personally prefer the screwback case. 

I have a few of the 18j 30 mm movements and as Ben mentioned we both find them interesting but not many others do.   Go figure!!  If you ever want to let it go let me know.

Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

So you where the guys bidding it up

I was also bidding for a while. I trust she went to a good home

Good catch

Cheers

Hans

....where is the 18th jewel?  Bottom pivot of the barrel arbor?

Tom

I find it very difficult to comprehense the technical nomenclature. With the 18j. movement on the table, it was pointed out to me in French but at the same time virtually impossible to grasp in my mother-language, let alone reproduce here in English. Maybe somebody in our circle could shine a laserpointer?

An observation: although higher numbers of 'stones' (rubis) could be ordered already from the moment of introduction (1941 for SC T2 version), estimated more than 99½% were delivered in standard 16 jewel lay-out. With this as reference, a potential client for 18j. was to gain not one but two extra stone-bearings. Although theoretically possible, SC versions with 17j. from this period are as yet unheard off -> if making extra costs better to go 'all the way' than 'half-hearted' most probably. Only with the appearance of caliber 280 in 1948 did the standard number go up from 16 to 17j.

Could it considered to be an 'overkill' to equip this movement with eighteen stones? - not easy to say. Fact is that even in the Rg-chronometer movements and later calibers up to and including the 286, Omega did never go beyond a number of 17 (motto: "enough is enough"?). And Marco Richon even doesn't mention the fact when showing illustrations of Anti Magnetic 30mm's in his books. Practical value or not - collectors will cherish these beautiful movements, with an added bonus because of their scarcity.

regards, Ben.

　

.. a straight forward 'civilian'  18j.  30T2SC  (without "anti magnetic" title) with somewhat dull uninteresting dial (original??).   This ref.2242 was shipped to South Africa in June 1943.

It shows that after lifting a backcover, surprises can be experienced. According to the Omega archives, all numbers are matching.

 

 

Gilded plates, no Incabloc

 

CK2242 - 18j.  (introduction 1941)

-illustration from Omega SA

Hi Hoi,

I do not think this is a pilot´s watch - too small, no movable bezel....

A military?  Just only because the black dial? There are lots with black dials around! Maybe, but should have military markings IMO

The interesting features on this particular watch are:

1) the nice stepped case

2) the 18 jewel movement which is not scarce but "uncommon" I would say

I have them both, ref. 2254 and 2242 and like them as uncommon examples.

Enjoy

Erich

although I would like to think that not every pilot's watch must have an adjustable bezel. As for size: it seems that the war-model UK2292 (Fleet Air Arm, RAF pilots, navigators) and CK2777 (RAF post-war) are more or less of similar diameter like this CK2254. Best argument indeed is the total lack of any military registration markings.

Which leaves the question open: for what market-segment were they intended? A "high-end" Sports watch for golfing or tennis? In that case better make sure there's a shock-protector inside...

Ben.

This is a very interesting thread. I have a similar one - with the 18J movement, essentially identical to Hoipolloi's second watch. I have seen Bill's earlier posts on these, but sadly I have no idea on the origins of my particular watch. Again, case etc. look like that RCAF add - but it has no military markings. I will be interested in how this thread continues as I would like to know a bit more about it.

Kris.

Hi Kris.

   By looking at the lugs, I can tell that yours is the same like mine,, there is no military markings on it but maybe Canadian Royal Air Force had to order them for their own at that time (didn't want to share from British R.A.F ?)  and they are just simple like that ?

   I will post more pics when I have the 2254 in my hands.

   Best regards.

 

   Hoi.

 

 

    BTW, I'd like to know what kind of watch did R.A.F use in the WW II ? because the one with ref 2777 came much later (1949 ).

Hi Hoi,

Have you tried to get an extract from the Omega archives for yours? Curious to see if that says anything useful.

K.

This is what I have on my caseback.

  

  What can I do ?

...based on the information at Omega, your watch's case was produced during or after 1943.   You could send the serial number off to Omega for confirmation of the mating of movement and case, but I'm not sure if they still have this information.

http://62.73.172.167/cu_vintage/img/movement.pdf

Certainly looks like the 2254 in the other pictures.

Take care,

gatorcpa

 

.. all steel cases were engraved with a unique casing' serial #, which system was consequently changed into a 4-digit (at the period - later more digits) ref. #.  For gold cases this change-over took place in 1956.

On the picture below are three non-magnetic models. From L>R:    CK2179 -16j. (delivered spring '45 to Panama) - CK2242 -18j. (spring '45 to Canada) - CK2254 -18j. (Canada end '44 ).  Case backs unmarked, no engravings whatsoever.

 

CK2179 nickeled movement, no Incabloc.

cheers,  Ben.

I have some 2179's, too.

    

  And according to Omega, there were 10,000 units delivered to US Army at that time and they have /3 or /6 or ??? following 2179.
  Today, I took two of them out and compared.

  

   they are 2179/6 and 2179/3

Strange enough, the backs are not interchangeable.

 

In this picture, the back is from 2179/6 the case in 2179/3.

/6 on your left, /3 right

 I looked closely at the case, they are a bit different, too.

 
 

     Funny .

..Omega was ordering from and supplied by different case manufacturing companies, hence slight differences. With the war still going on or just about to end, maybe improvisation was sometimes called for and make do as much as possible with what was available.  The 2179 (see foto from the last post) is a dash 2.

Yet another model from this period is the CK2244. Identical to the 2254, but with snap-on back (against screw-on) and therefore slightly thinner as well as reduced moisture/ dust protection. This particular piece dates from sept. 1941.

 

Thanks for that - nice to see your collections

I think I should pay Omega the CHF75 to find out.

Mine seems a little earlier perhaps, with a 9.6M serial number on the 18J movement and a case number of 10175778.

Hopefully they can tell me something interesting. Seems a similar age '43ish to the one from South Africa
This message has been edited by trim on 2010-05-24 15:21:49

Well, I have just ordered my extract from the archives.

I will see if it says anything interesting in 1 month when it arrives.

This has turned into an exceptionally interesting thread.

All these comparative photos are incredibly valuable.

here are some detailed photos of mine (none of movement, but it is the 18J 30SCT2, no shock protection).

New crystal and full clean and oil.

Seems the Crown is not original.

It joins my 1941/42 26.5T3 and a '63 Seamaster.

I like your 26.5 and I bought one today. Here are the pics from the seller. Please give comments.

 

  Maybe it needs a crown like this.

 

Great to see another 26.5 Mine has no inca-block.

If it helps I believe the crown on my 26.5 is 100% original, rather than a thin one like that. Having said that yours is a bit more recent (mine is a 9.4M serial) and a different case style, so you are probably right. This message has been edited by trim on 2010-05-29 15:30:36

Yes, mine is 1943 and I will have to find a correct crown for it.

  If you need a crown, you can pick one from this box, Trim .

   

handy collection of crowns!

I will post some movement pics when I get home from Europe, I am still here for just over a week. The 26.5 is one of my wrist regulars, I am rather fond of it. It also has a screw back.

Seems your 26.5 regular took some damage, but that is a nice looking watch!

I find it interesting that they were still made alongside the 30T.

 

   Is it better ?

 

   

Yes, certainly. That is a very very nice watch, I would wear it often

I hate to think how many Omega you have in your collection - I get the impression it is large! This message has been edited by trim on 2010-05-31 07:21:57

My 2254 is here today.

  

 The second hand is original, the hour and minute hands have been relumed.

 

 

Hi All,

Well, I got my very expensive extract from OMEGA. This does not settle anything unfortunately.

It is confirmed as a 2242 case, but does not indicate to whom it was shipped. The interesting things are, the production date, and the fact that it is a 'special adjustment' which I have seen only referred to with military watches that were 'not' certified, but were adjusted to chronometer standard. The OMEGA entry for the 2242 refers to RAF (but that may have been privately sourced, who knows). I really can't see a civilian watch being a 'special adjustment' without chronometer certification, whereas we know military watches were sometimes like this.

Opinions?

This message has been edited by trim on 2010-06-10 17:10:48

Hi Trim,

I would not worry about the "special adjustment"  - this means you have a chronometer rated movement without the "bulletin de marche" and without the wording "chronometre" on the dial - nothing uncommon with Omega! Early chronometers often lack the chronometre inscription on the dial.

It seems that they started later with  printing it on the dial.

What made me worry more about is the fact that there is no mention of a black dial in  the extract of archives.

There should be a pink satin dial which is obviously absent...

I would check back with omega if there was a typo - not uncommon either!

If they confirmed a pink colored dial then obviously somebody has swapped it sometime ago... this would be a pity though!

kind regards

Erich

This message has been edited by mac_omega on 2010-06-11 05:50:02