Horological Meandering

Hello All,

Hope you're all having a good weekend.

I wanted to know from my fellow Purists which firms provided them with the best after sales service in terms of:

1) Good network globally: where the work can be done locally within that country vs. sending the watch back to Switzerland or whatever the origin of the manufacturer might be

2) Quick turn around times in comparison to others

3) Good communication and understanding throughout the chain beginning with the AD/Boutique employees down to the firm itself

4) Good Quality Control at the service level

5) Charges are reasonable

If you could share your experiences that would be great, the purpose of this is to ascertain which firm consistently has a good reputation when it comes to the above. I do understand that there are so many variations and factors involved not to mention the watches themselves are very different but if we to focus on the corporate culture as whole which firm tops the list or is up there. If anyone knows of a survey which provides such results similar to the automotive industry please do tell us.

TY,

S

Chopard LUC and MIH/Embassy.

If there were 2 watches I liked equally enough and both roughly in the same price range and I could only afford 1, and one of them was from LUC, I would pick the LUC hands down.  LUC still even if I liked the other watch better but they had a bad rep for post sales service (and not many pay enough attention to after sales from what I gather) although this is getting into a harder area for comparison.

Hi, Salman,

SPECIFIC local service, which needs to be split further into AD vs factory service center

and within this, specific individuals

attitude of regional CEO/GM and their staff if they need to get involved

attitude of HQ SAV director and his team

attitude of the HQ CEO and his team

At the end of the day, SAV and any sort of service is critically people based, and specifically the individual YOU deal with.

That's why sweeping generalizations, even of specific offices, can be very misleading.

More abstractly, the question also needs to be considered on two levels -

skill

attention to detail

whether anyone cares.

Integrity

One would think skill is a given; it is not.

One would hope caring is a given; too often it is not.

Breguet USA charged me $600 to polish a case for a tourbillon. NO movement service, just a case polish.

I got it back with some dried sun tan lotion still caked in the fluting between the lugs.

In this case, they didn't care, and I wonder if they even did any work for the $600 bill (integrity)

I pointed it out to the BH Boutique staff; too bad they didn't catch it before I went in to pick it up either.

Back it went; back it came, and after yet another other several weeks/months, other than a "sorry" I still got billed $600 and nothing else.

For a basic case polish. 

Still, my basic point stands - I consider the higher factory service costs an insurance policy - they Fxxx it up, I have recourse.

Independent? less so.

Cheers,

TM

given my caveats above, I agree with Aurthur, Chopard LUC under Mr. K-F Sheufele, cares very very much about customer satisfaction and SAV, though how this translates to the field varies quite a bit. 

This personal "care" is one of the reasons he and Chopard LUC won the first PuristSPro Purity Prize 2009 click here

I would add AP USA - I know a few people who have had some problems (which service center or brand hasn't?) but for me they are batting 1000 (sometimes after a round of make good...    )  I had experience or followed first hand in 8 markets plus HQ; the only one where I consistently heard about problems was Germany and UK - consistently heard problems but don't draw any conclusions, I am not surprised I didn't hear about no problem cases!

Richard Mille (again, it sometimes takes a round or two more than I would like, but given the highly technical and sometime just post-prototype level of complication of some of the pieces as well as the relatively smaller production scale, I don't find that so surprising or objectionable, kinda like I expect Ferrari and Lamborghini to need more work and care than Porsche.) RM USA and RM HQ try their best, is all I can say.

Patek USA in the past, but in the past year or two...

No personal experience with Cartier but anecdotally I've heard only good things.

GG and DR globally (I had experience or followed first hand in 4 markets plus HQ) when they were independent and under Mr. Gerald Roden was fantastic, waiting and seeing under Bulgari.

Blancpain globally because Mr. Marc Hayek cares, but regional experiences have been spotty and inconsistent until escalation. BP USA through their NYC boutique has been great, and Marc Junod cares, though actual work in the workshops can be a little unpredictable, but I know regional and HQ care so I can live with it.

GP USA used to be handled by RGM (and still are, I think) and were good. GP HQ was good though slow. I've had mixed experiences with GP HQ - some of the best if I had to get specific individuals involved, some frustrating probably due to a bad day and unlucky draw on who I got (this was several years ago)

The independents are a crap shoot, and you really are at the mercy of the head independent in the workshop as well as their mood, workload, and financial condition. But at least you don't have to go through "layers"

Svend Andersen - great service, but occasional a come back or two

Paul Gerber - one of the truly great watchmakers and truly nice human beings in this, or any other industry (finishing style may not be everyone's cup of tea)

UN - I want to say good things about them, because I know they do great work and have some great infrastructure and logistics in place to help ensure things go right and smoothly, but since I know some of their executives do not appreciate and take badly even legitimate reporting of negative experiences (with no intention of bashing whatsoever, just bringing things to their attention) I refuse to make positive comments either.

Hey, wait, I just did...

Vacheron - has varied over the years, and I personally know about mostly good experiences, but I also know about some dubious experiences.  With Mr. Proellochs I knew I had recourse; with Mr. Torres, I have no idea since he doesn't care about me or ThePuristS or PuristSPro.

Jaquet Droz -

oops, gotta go...

has the best after sales service in the industry? Does it have the following?:

1) Good network globally: local Factory or AD service centers that can handle any after sales or customer service issue

2) Quick turn around times in comparison to others

3) Good communication and understanding throughout the chain beginning with the AD/Boutique employees down to the firm itself

4) Good Quality Control at the service level (i.e. no scratched, not working watches are sent back after service or any work done?)

5) Charges are reasonable

I wish there was an independent ranking system where each company was given points for various aspects of Customer Service and After Sales Service, that way I could choose which company's watches to focus on vs. this spin of the roulette wheel.

I am happy to hear AP USA is generally good but does AP have local service centers in other parts of the world? As far as I know they don't have one in the M.E or GCC region, all watches regardless of the issue are sent back to La Brassus and even the mothership is having problems for e.g. by sending back scratched watches, or watches that dont work at all and once the issue was raised the only reply was sorry we'll give you a refund for the new bezel and labor charges for installing the bezel, what? thanks but that does not solve the problem. Not to mention the watch had 2 round trips and then when it did come back, after the 1st day stopped working....I mean seriously...whats going with the QC?

Its things like this that I find unacceptable and I think alot of people would also feel the same way.

S

I've resigned myself to

1. hoping that the probabilities are working in my favour, please please please.

2. hoping that escalation will result in someone who cares, sooner rather than later.

Name me ONE brand that supposedly has never had a problem with SAV and I'll show you someone who's claiming something they don't know nothing about (ie a consumer who thinks their experience is the only in the universe, or the only one that counts. Positive or negative.)

(sigh)

I've resigned myself to

1. hoping that the probabilities are working in my favour, please please please.

S: I always keep my fingers crossed and pray for that LoooL

2. hoping that escalation will result in someone who cares, sooner rather than later.

S: But thats my point why does their have to be such resistance that the issue has to be escalated, why isn't it SOP by now?, since some of the companies have "255 years of uninterrupted operations"

Name me ONE brand that supposedly has never had a problem with SAV and I'll show you someone who's claiming something they don't know nothing about (ie a consumer who thinks their experience is the only in the universe, or the only one that counts. Positive or negative.)

S: I can't Dr. T because A) I am no where near as knowledgeable and experienced as you are and B) as you've pointed out no one experience makes a complete dataset.

Having said that the word on the street is that Rolex by far has the largest global network of service centers in every part of the world, quick service times and reasonable cost in comparison to other firms.

S

Here's one (of many) dilemmas.

a person of principle dislikes unanswered emails and phone calls, even from unsolicited strangers. So he makes the time and effort to answer any and all emails and phone calls.

This starts out beautifully, and all is well.

As his / her reputation grows, others learn of him/her and they too avail themselves of his / her kindness and expertise and connections.

The load grows; from 5 emails a week, to hundreds a month, to hundreds PER DAY.

I'll leave the more obvious consequences to your imagination, but I will point out one often unexpected perversion of this scenario - the original person willing to help out of the kindness of his heart and driven by principle, has somehow been transformed into a villain in the minds of some.

"Hey, asshole, too busy to even answer an email, are you?"

"Hey, why help that person but not me?  Is it because I'm not as rich/famous/pretty?"

Life's complicated, ain't it?

now transfer this scenario to an SAV operation. Or to third party advocates.

I know, I know, SAV loads are a part of doing business; deal with it, buddy.

But life's never quite so simple, is it?

To your specific question -

posting on public boards like this to gain leverage - I HATE that, as a fellow consumer, and as an owner/founder/key advisor emeritus of a global and public "virtual community" over quite some years - more often than not, the venue is abused; more often than not, the one sided presentation is more self serving than informational and helpful; more often than not, it borders on blackmail. 

So no, PuristSPro has not, and will not, allow itself to become a wailing wall.

So how does the average joe escalate a matter?

First, ask for the manager or supervisor.

If that doesn't achieve satisfaction, escalate it to the local or regional or organizational Managing Director/PIC (per in charge)

At this point, most will give up if no satisfaction is achieved and the consumer will walk away and NEVER buy from that company again. and probably make it a point to tell anyone and everyone that would listen.

Those more determined, would try to contact the HQ offices directly; those who are a little more savvy will try to find an introduction or champion among fellow consumers (see opening comments)

Makes sense? Did I miss the point of the question?

Cheers,

TM 

You got my point and that seems a good approach. Finding the right people in the hierarchy of an organisation may not be as straightforward though.

Ahh yes, Burial-by-E-mail. I know the syndrome well. I have developed a series of shorthand replies that at least acknowledges the question and provide some response. But it’s frustrating to not be able to answer as one would like.

Some old fashioned approaches translate poorly to the modern world.

A

it is simply physically impossible to stay ahead of 100plus emails a day, day in, day out (NOT including spam, of course; 100+ LEGITIMATE emails...) 7 days a week 365 days a year.

Trust me, I've tried, for almost 10 years...

And now that this thread is lower and soon to be on page two, I can tell you that you know who you can email if you have any dead end experiences through local and normal channels...

Cheers, my friend.

Thanks TM.

Thought you might enjoy a couple of images to finish off this thread:

Biting off more than you can chew

Chasing your own tail

They seemed somehow relevant ...

they were making fun of me.

But from you, I think you are empathizing...

Can't wait to meet in a few months.

Cheers,

TM

Because this is how I usually feel.

It was definitely empathy that prompted the images.

Purists is a nice distraction from life's necessities, but balance is essential.

Hi Thomas,

Really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to address this, I'll continue our discussion by further adding my 2 humble cents to each of your points:

SPECIFIC local service, which needs to be split further into AD vs factory service center

S: I agree, I can say that local AD service centers in the M.E region like for Richemont brands tend to handle very basic stuff although in some instances the technical watch service staff are quite capable to handle complicated tasks but yet there are specific instructions from the manufacture that they are not allowed to open or work on the watches and that they have to be sent to the factory service center which in the case of the GCC is Dubai, that wastes SO much time, and if Dubai can't handle it then off it goes back to Switzerland, 6 months is nothing, could even be a year or more for complicated stuff and if you drop dead in that time whats the point? and this is where the local AD even has a service center, for e.g. AP Kuwait can't do anything more than strap and bracelet changes, for even the simplest thing the watch has to be sent back to Switzerland, why can't watch companies collaborate together to justify the expense of having a shared service center facility in cases where the volumes can't justify having a stand alone operation?

and within this, specific individuals

attitude of regional CEO/GM and their staff if they need to get involved

attitude of HQ SAV director and his team

attitude of the HQ CEO and his team

At the end of the day, SAV and any sort of service is critically people based, and specifically the individual YOU deal with.

S: very true the Service Apres-Vente (customer service) people and technicians are the key but for most of them due to the attitude of upper management it becomes a tedious and unglamorous job with no incentives for growth, after all its the guys in sales/marketing who sip cocktails with the who's who at swanky parties that move up into senior management while these people are the very pillar on which the industry stands but no one cares about them

That's why sweeping generalizations, even of specific offices, can be very misleading.

More abstractly, the question also needs to be considered on two levels -

skill

attention to detail

whether anyone cares.

Integrity

One would think skill is a given; it is not.

S: very true Dr. T but I have also felt that firms don't want local AD technicians to handle their watches so that there is no transfer of know how to them and they can't practice on those pieces, so "keep it within the firm" vs. training AD technicians, better yet not even have an AD service center, while the customer suffers.

One would hope caring is a given; too often it is not.

S: alot of times the attitude is that if he/she is rich enough to buy this watch then they are rich enough to get screwed, the more you screw them the better it is, not limited to watches, also seen this with ADs for exotic cars as well. Whats the incentive to care? I mean when they sell you a watch at an AD or Manufacture owned Boutique the salespersons make a commission but whats the financial incentive to care? As far as I know nothing. That can't bode well for us.

Breguet USA charged me $600 to polish a case for a tourbillon. NO movement service, just a case polish.

I got it back with some dried sun tan lotion still caked in the fluting between the lugs.

In this case, they didn't care, and I wonder if they even did any work for the $600 bill (integrity)

I pointed it out to the BH Boutique staff; too bad they didn't catch it before I went in to pick it up either.

Back it went; back it came, and after yet another other several weeks/months, other than a "sorry" I still got billed $600 and nothing else.

For a basic case polish. 

S: Dr. T this is exactly the kind of bs I am talking about, it is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE that we pay the prices we do and then have to put up with this, such practices need to be brought to the fore so that buyers can understand what they have to put up with once they buy that "sexy" looking watch and the companies need to realize that we won't take this anymore unless they get their act together.

Still, my basic point stands - I consider the higher factory service costs an insurance policy - they Fxxx it up, I have recourse.

S: True or better yet why don't I stop buying their watches altogether and buy from a firm that has excellent after sales service?

Independent? less so.

S: Wouldn't it be the case that with an Independent (in most cases a small enterprise) who is dependent on the business of his customers and is not part of a large corporate group that he/she would ensure they did a good job and retain you as a customer and if they screw up to take care of it?

Cheers,

TM

With few exceptions (Haldimann, Voutilainen among them; in direct knowledge, Paul Gerber and Svend Andersen too but I've heard other stories...) many of the independents could care less about the client, they blow smoke up your skirt because they think you can help feed their family for the next 5 years.

And for those who think "hey, they treat me like royalty! I don't know what you are talking about, TM" just give it a few years and stop looking like a meal ticket; then see how respectul and kind and generous with their time and knowledge they are.

But S, several of your statements are guilty of some very common (too common) misconceptions.

To wit -

"True or better yet why don't I stop buying their watches altogether and buy from a firm that has excellent after sales service?"

You assume that any one customer actually makes a difference, or that the seller cares about any one customer. In most cases, they don't.

I've stopped buying from a brand many times. I doubt very much they noticed, or if they did, even cared.

Panerai. VC. even Dufour (we're friends again, I really try not to permanently burn bridges unless the other party is REALLY REALLY an asshole...and of course, Philippe is not.)

"companies need to realize that we won't take this anymore unless they get their act together."

"practices need to be brought to the fore so that buyers can understand what they have to put up with once they buy that "sexy" looking watch and the companies need to realize that we won't take this anymore unless they get their act together."

But S, the consumers themselves are to blame as well. (and no, I am not blaming the victim, but am pointing out when the 'innocent'  victim is not so innocent)

A friend had his Lamborghini serviced; was billed and paid $4000 for a car that basically had nothing wrong with it.

He drives it 500 miles a year. He didn't discover what a crappy job was done (including billing for a cylinder low compression problem that was pure made up bullshit) until well after any reasonable period of time to make a claim.

Know any watch buyers who sound like this?

And then there are the people who have 1 (or 2 or 5 experiences) and then draw gospel like conclusions - "Wow! I got good service 1 (2, 5) times, they are perfect!"

And worse, "I got 2 crappy service experiences, these guys are CRAP!"

Uh, huh.

I look, see, hear, and actively seek out first person experiences, TEMPERED and brought into focus by personal experience (which makes me different than "professional" polling companies like Harris, JD Powers, or any of the myriad new self-proclaimed consultants to or experts in the luxury goods industry...not better, just different...)

And I always leave plenty of room for error or misinterpretation or sample space errors in my conclusions, when I actually try to draw any.

Even john davis (ei8htohms) can (rightfully) ask me if my data space might have been corrupted by "user error"...

Other sites and entities feel some purpose is served to have self-reported experiences; the reader "can make up their own mind."

I see the wisdom of such ideas (Ebay is probably the biggest user of such "feedback") but I personally feel the downsides are greater than the upsides.

"alot of times the attitude is that if he/she is rich enough to buy this watch then they are rich enough to get screwed, the more you screw them the better it is, not limited to watches, also seen this with ADs for exotic cars as well. "

This is, alas, too true, and unfortunately, "true" in more than just the pragmatic "this is reality" sense; also in more abstract ways (I've been brooding over various variations of this topic for the last several days; see BL and Auto and maybe even travel and WFED forum in coming days and weeks and months.)

"Whats the incentive to care? I mean when they sell you a watch at an AD or Manufacture owned Boutique the salespersons make a commission but whats the financial incentive to care? As far as I know nothing. That can't bode well for us."

S, I am very very familiar, both personally, academically, and professionally with the ongoing battle, both philosophical and empirically based between the "commission based" vs "flat salary based" schools, believe me when I write this - there are COMPELLING reasons for both, and more than one being abstractly more "right" or "effective" than the other, is that the management choice must be RIGHT and APPROPRIATE for the organization - the management, and the employees.

Paying me based on commission, for example, might motivate me a little. Pay me based upon pride of work and I'll work day and night for you.

A little perhaps confusing example - I was driving by a parking lot which had a perfect, unobstructed view of the Pacific and an anchored yacht in the distance. I pulled in, asked the attendant if I could just pull down into the 3/4 empty lot and take a few pictures. 10, 15 min max, without paying the parking fee.

Brusquely, he waved me in, mumbling "15 min..."

As I was taking pictures, people kept coming up to talk to me; quickly it bacame 30 minutes, then 45 minutes.

I noticed the attendant start walking towards me, then turned around to go back to his attendants chair.

That reminded me to hurry up and finish, even though there were plenty of spaces left (it was now about 5/8 empty)

As I as finishing up, someone with a potentially nasty dog came up to me and told me I had to leave RIGHT NOW. Since you didn't pay, you have to leave RIGHT NOW.

Fair enough; I was finishing up anyway, and in fairness, I was there longer than I said I would be (though again, I kept getting interrupted by people wanting to talk, and I didn't want to be a jerk. Not the parking lots problem, I realize...) still, a dog, what, to threaten me? and the tone...very very unpleasant (I had stronger words in mind)

So as I was getting ready to drive away (Mr. Dogman planted himself in front of me, watching my every move) I thought, you know, the guy was cool to let me in, it wasn't his problem I kept getting interrupted in my photo taking, I was there longer than I said I would be. So I wanted to go over and say, hey, thanks, and give him the $4 for the parking and explain I wasn't a liar, I just kept getting interrupted by strangers.

Mr. MeanDogMan would not leave me alone and kept insisting, in increasingly nasty tones. you have to leave. NOW.

The body language was definitely hostile.

F' him.

My point - I'm driven more by my sense of "right and wrong" than by being able to "get away" with the $4.

"very true the Service Apres-Vente (customer service) people and technicians are the key but for most of them due to the attitude of upper management it becomes a tedious and unglamorous job with no incentives for growth, after all its the guys in sales/marketing who sip cocktails with the who's who at swanky parties that move up into senior management while these people are the very pillar on which the industry stands but no one cares about them "

An over simplifcation, S.

More later if anyone is still interested.

Gotta run and take care of something urgent.

First, thanks for being considerate and not wanting to embarrass me in public.

I reply here because I imagine if several people thought this and took the time and effort to email me, many more might have thought this as well but didn't or couldn't. 

S: "If anyone knows of a survey which provides such results similar to the automotive industry please do tell us."

TM: "I look, see, hear, and actively seek out first person experiences, TEMPERED and brought into focus by personal experience (which makes me different than "professional" polling companies like Harris, JD Powers, or any of the myriad new self-proclaimed consultants to or experts in the luxury goods industry...not better, just different...)"

Yes, I am thinking of those "expert" surveys that concluded that IWC "is the most prestigious watch brand in the history of the universe"

Certainly, more than Patek or AP; without a doubt more than JLC or Breguet or Lange.

uh huh.

I also remember those famous automotive quality surveys that consistently ranked Toyota at the very top, year after year, in terms of reliability and quality.

Until they weren't.

Beware generalizations and easy answers, even if justified by "millions and billions of knowledgeable experts"...

Alot of experts do get it wrong however if the surveys are based on consumer feedback/data and not on "expert" opinion then how can the survey not be a gauge of general sentiment? 

If all rankings and lists are wrong I guess Harvard really isn't the No. 1 University in America cause the "experts" have no clue and the World Bank and IMF's GDP no.s must be wrong as well cause those so called technocrats don't know anything. Valid point but weak.

The Toyota saga really is a shame, sure they had trouble with their products but the whole witchhunt aspect reeks of corporate espionage, nationalism (aka racism) and coordinated attack by "he who cannot be named". Other manufacturers have bigger problems, just no one points them out or talks about them, here's one why does every Ferrari have issues with substandard quality parts for e.g. with fuel hoses thats causes fuel to drip onto red hot manifolds causing the engine to catch on fire or when anyone crashes in one the car almost always catches fire burning their occupants to death, I mean if you're going to pay USD 300,000 might as well get some safety features and quality up in there but oh no, it will take away from the excitement and passion and being on the edge.....yeah right. No one has ever thought about doing anything about that and its been going on for decades.

S

Hi, S,

With all due respect to Harvard and its students and alumni, do you HONESTLY think Harvard can defensibly be titled "No. 1 University in America" and not get strong and strongly valid counter arguments and counter proposals?

I know a few Yalies (including some Heads of State) who'd take strong exception to that statement, if they had to choose at all in a mixed heterogeneous population. In most cases, they will demur and officially state that the best school is the one that best matches the skills, talents, and personality of the student.

Oh, wait a minute; that's a copout.

Sorry, no it's not - remember the Lange vs Patek wars?

uh, huh. Salman, you've been around here long enough to know where this headed, fast, don't you?

;-)

Now about those Ferrari statements, I'm reminded of something a good friend who's been a long time Purist and who's worked closely with me editorially once tole me - "The first one to use Hitler as an example or to make a point, loses."

EVERY Ferrari, Salman? Really?

That's about as ridiculous a statement as the other one heard, "EVERY Lamborghini..."

See why now?

Not to be deliberately confusing or play mind games or word games here, S, but I'm reminded of something my father taught me a long time ago - "Even when your mother is wrong, she's right."

And it took me a long time to understand the wisdom of those words - it not only has to do with some abstract of "truth" and universal "fact" but also flial piety, the uncertainty of human knowledge, the vagaries of fate and the universe, and the fact that some things are as important, maybe more important, than being "right."

Maybe not yet that well represented worldwide (yet) but very friendly, approachable and efficient when it comes to any problems and servicing - certainly in my experience.

Vernon.

Its been a while since I read such an interesting post.  Amidst all the nice photographs and write up, most people fail to realize that it takes more than money, or lots of money, to indulge in this hobby.  Mechanical parts will fail, it's only a matter of time.  But how you treat those 'failures' define the person you are.

As most business becomes worldwide, it is a challenge to retain what is dear in the manufacturer/watch maker's heart.  A 'true' maker may not be able to service a watch in the most efficient manner.  Try to pack your bookshelf if you a collector and you find yourself browsing and reading the books instead of packing them neatly.  If you take out the passion, then what is left?  This is a dilemma and once the layers grew, more things are lost.

Nowadays, I am glad that 'whenever' any of my expensive toys need servicing, the manufacturers are willing to do it (after warranty ),they do not bankrupt me in the process and they return the toys in working condition.  Sad, isnt it?  I grew not to expect the manufacturer to polish it, replace other worn/or going to wear parts so I need not send the toys back a few months later ... u get the point.

Simply, there is no incentive for anyone in the chain to provide the type of service when it comes to servicing a product that was sold.  If there are people who care, the system still breaks down because others dont.  It is much more profitable to sell a new toy where everyone will benefit financially.  The threat of 'boycotting' will not work because they dont care.  There are enough new business to look forward to. 

Warmest regards