Horological Meandering

Hi All,

 

We have discussed on many occasions our different collecting strategies, but I want to tease out the pros and cons of two approaches a bit more.

 

Often our dream watches have a degree of rarity and/or a high price tag associated with them. Many of us start ‘small’ and build up our collections. Sometimes this is done for lack of disposable income early in careers and life, and sometimes because we are still learning the ‘value’ of pieces.

 

Another approach is to utilise reviews and expert opinions and purchase what are considered the ‘best’. Some might think ‘why waste your time with lesser pieces’ when you could just buy the best ‘keepers’ up front.

 

Personally I think the horological ‘journey’ is important, because it provides a framework (or reference) for watches that allows us to understand and appreciate what is available at all levels. But others may think that I am wasting my time and should just buy the best examples in a few categories (chrono, perpetual, repeater…)

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Andrew

I personally think that the " step by step " strategy is the best one, and the more enjoyable...

It is the best way to discover your / our taste, what we really want, desire, and it is very educative...

As for a wine, if you begin by drinking your first 1 000 USD wine, what kind of comparaison do you have, if you know nothing about wine???

The " Live " Experience is very important, to make your / our own judgement on horological pieces.

Reading some " experts " point of view is good, but not enough.

You / we really have to try, to test, to feel, to live with these pieces to know if they are made for you/ us...

Upgrading a collection is a passion which leads to learn more and more about watches...and about us, too, our real tastes, desires, etc...

IMHO, of course.

Curious to see what the others think...

Best.

Nicolas

Thank for your comments, Nicolas. I thought for a while that I had generated an orphan post.

 

I agree with your perspective. I don’t want to colour the discussion too much, but can I tell you a story?

 

I have a wealthy friend who has an amazing wine cellar and Hi-Fi system, one that I am unlikely to ever own or build. My friend achieved this system by asking a high end Hi-Fi retailer to put together the best system they could for him. He listened to it, was happy with the way it sounded, and had it installed.

 

He stocked his cellar by getting a wine broker to source the best back vintages of the best wines from around the world. The interesting thing is that he doesn’t drink much and when he does he prefers a cheap sweet white style with food.

 

Now he does get considerable pleasure from owning what he thinks are the ‘best’ wines and a great sounding Hi-Fi system. Maybe it’s a personal philosophy of life (although one that I think fits the PuristS ideals), but I am not sure that he is getting the most from his ‘collections’.

 

Interested in further perspectives…

 

Andrew

I'm a sucker for Hi Fi, and put some big bucks for this passion, some years, let's say 20 years ago...

I spent a lot of time in many auditoriums, testing different models, combinations, before getting THE one which made me very happy.

I upgraded my system, even in choosing special cables!!!

And even got a separate eletric system to feed my Hi Fi System, which is the bigger improvement ( and the cheaper one ) I had! LOL

It's all about education, I think, and that's pretty cool.

The same about watches, IMO.

For me, this is impossible to come from a Swatch to a Minute repeater, and enjoying as it deserves this last one.

An interesting thing is about the Independants, in this perspective...

I mean that to get what the Independants do ( and I include some of the special productions of certain Manufactures like the UN Freak, or the Extrem Lab JLC, not to speak about the JLC Minute Repeater in Titanium, or the AP Starwhhel ), you have to get first some experiences in more classical watches, IMO.

Once you digest theese classic creations, you are able to enjoy more original watches.

On the other side, but this is the same for me, how to appreciate the sober Dufour " Simplicity " without knowing anything about watches???

How to appreciate the strengh of a Logo pre vendome without nkowing anything about Panerai?

I had a very interesting conversations with some Purists, Yesterday night about True Love of Watches.

The main question was: " Do you love watches for what they are, or for what they represent?"

Best.

Nicolas

"Do you love watches for what they are, or for what they represent?"

You should post this on HoMe one day when things get quiet.

A topic that needs time to digest and evolve.

Andrew

" Do you love watches for what they are, or for what they represent?" is good question, very interesting to hear opinion about it . Please summarize , and show us some opinion . Thanks

A few in this thread, and I'll count myself among them.  For me, searching for the right component is all the fun.  I have heard a lot of very "good quality" and "expensive" systems that sound like garbage, and pairing the right things together takes time and patience, as well as a good (somewhat trained) ear.

Once my system was set, I didn't touch it until I had a component fail recently that I could not source spare parts for.  I bought a new Lynn player and it matches my system well - my wife is very thankful that this did not spur the "upgrade fever" all over again. 

For watches, the journey is similar to audio but different for me as well.  I have moved from collecting to making them and tinkering with them, and that is again a whole other world of things to learn.  I love it!

Cheers, Al

I appreciate a lot this smooth sound.

I tried many combinations, and built my Hi Fi System around the Loud speakers ...BW Nautilus 802 ( He He...Any anology with watches are pure coincidence..LOL)

As these BW need a lot of power, I coupled them with an amp and pre amp from Accuphase...

And after I worked on the alimentation cables, and on " linking ( ??? ) XLR Cables...

I even asked to an electrician guy to install me a dedicaced line for my Hi Fi system...

And now, each time I listen to my system, I shiver...

Note that the pleasure is increased by reading a good Purist Post! LOL

Best, Al!

Nicolas

… some of our journeys are. Perhaps we should develop a questionnaire to profile the typical WIS. There is clearly a PhD in there somewhere.

 

I also dedicated an enormous amount of time and finances to Hi Fi equipment and also have a dedicated power line to my system. The system has actually been stable for the last few years and thankfully I am back listening to music rather analysing the sound (a common trap for audiophiles I think).

 

The system: Aura turntable with SME V tonearm/Koetsu cartridge, CEC TL-1 transport through a Theta DAC, amplification is VTL pre and monoblock power amps into Mirage M1 speakers all tied together with Siltech and Kimber cabling.

 

Sorry to go off topic, but obviously another passion we share.

 

Regards

 

Andrew

Andrew,

Nice to see another Mirage/bi-polar/omni-polar fan here.  I have updated versions of your classic M1's - mine are the OM-5 model and what I built my system around.  After listening to more speakers than I care to count, at many different price levels, I found the Mirage products to be superior for the price.  Along the way I had a couple of discussions with Ian Paisley (designer of your speajkers and mine) of API and getting some positining advice from him (my room is an odd shape) I can say I get more out of these spekaers than models costing well in excess of twice the price.

It seems their lines have gone more comsumer level over the last few years and unfotunately the long awaited OM-1 model never really made it off the ground.

Cheers, Al

Hi Al, Thanks for the additional information.

The M1's ar getting long in the tooth now, but over the years I have aditioned many 'new kids on the block' and the M1's still provide, to my ears, the best balance of qualities and excel in some areas that are important to me such as cohesivness, tonal accuracy and soundstaging.

A brilliant design.

Regards

Andrew

That way, we can savor and enjoy what we have.

I think we often forget the true value (nor economy value) of many things we have.

Sometimes we lose that feeling. 

And for me, this feeling is the best.

And above, the most beautiful of this feeling is that, sometimes, is changing over the years.

Best.

Emilio.

While opinions (especially the ones given on The Purists) are generally good for me they always fall short of providing the best information. It sometimes takes a while to figure out why this is but essentially it is because we buy watches for ourselves not because of what other people "THINK".

 

Case in point;

"Patek makes the best watches in the world"

 

Maybe, probably true but not for me. Indeed nearly all their designs leave me cold. I love rugged tool watches (and yes at a high price one i.e. IWC GST Perp' Chrono'). It took me a while to finally get on the right path for me and now while I love to heard other peoples opinions I know which one is the most important and I am coming at this from some experience (my experience of having sold my collection twice before I knew what I really liked!).

 

Just my thoughts.

Maturity - not only in collecting watches, or building up a hi-fi system, or whatever - but in all aspects of life, is not a goal; it is a process. And "experiencing" is the only theme of this process. Desire, satisfaction, hapiness, regret are all the legitimate emotions that are to be experienced during the period. Skipping some stairs of the ladder can save a person time and money and also avoid some of the above mentioned emotions (like regret). But the ironic reality of the process is: there is no such a thing as the ultimate collection; so there will always be a reason to regret. Regarding the money spent; there is no logic of spending money for watches anyway.

Finally, if someone wants to save time on collecting watches, he/she shouldn't buy them because they always remind us of time.

Sincerely

Ahmet

. . . as I fell for the Omega central tourbillon many years ago at the inception of my active life as a collector, but I was unable to comprehend forking over the necessary cash then. My seven years of collecting have acclimated my penchant for purchasing, but the cruel paradox is that I can no longer afford to acquire one . . . cruel because I could have bought one then. Frankly, I doubt I will ever be able to acquire one, given the current global plunge. Had I to do it all over again with the benefit of hindsight, I would have bought the Omega then and been done with it . . . cordially, Art

I really can;t comment too much on anything to do with watches because I really just don't know too much about horologerie.  I'm also not a techinically inclined person by any means. To give an example, I'm the sort that whether getting a new pre-power amp or computer, I hate reading manuals and just go by feel and put in the plugs where I think it should go and then work from there.  After 2-3 attempts max, I call the guy I boight it from and get him to do it.  I just want to use it.  Given this aspect of myself, I think I'll not be able to want to get into say how a tourbillon really works etc.  All I can appreciate right now is the aesthetics of things which are very subjective and personal.  I tend to subscribe to my friend's philosophy because I'm impatient and I'm a "user" given my analogy above.  I do realize that I am giving up the "educational" aspect of a step by step approach but I guess I just have never been that sort of person ever.  Another reason why I target the best given my budget is one of my primary objectives starting this is to leave a small legacy to my children and given that, if I can target the best based on expert opinions from here and elsewhere, it will allow me to meet this objective.

My friend however, is rather different from me.  He likes to try stuff and he understands and enjoys the technicalities of things.  Take golf for example, he'll try every new component from japan and I'll install it for him (club fitting is the only close to techinical hobby I'm into .  Same thing for him with watches.  He loves independents despite owning the Langes and Pateks of the world.  He's actually a "field tester" (not sure what the term is) and spends quite a bit ot time in Basel talking to the whos who over there.  He's actually got a new prototype perpetual (don;t know form who) and another prototype tourbillon (I think) on route to him early next year and late next year respectively, for him to use, try, test and provide feedback on.  could be a small independent I really wouldn;t know.

So given my character setup and one of my key objectives for getting into this hobby, the "resist temptation and get the best of class to my budget" seems to work for me.  Alas, there is no doubt I do give up some of the educational process and at best may be classified as "new money" equivalent (if I even do qualify that lacks the heritage etc but I guess that is reflective of who I am not having come from a well to do back ground and needing to work hard for the little I have.  I do appreciate my acquisitions but in a different manner I guess.

Dear wmclarenf1,

I didn’t link to your original post initially, because I didn’t want anyone to take it the wrong way, but the context was important and thanks for understanding and particularly for your additional comments.

I always enjoy reading how different collectors come to this ‘hobby’ and what is important to them. For me it was the mechanical movement itself and the history of horology that intrigued me, but as I have ‘hung out’ here with others I have come to appreciate other aspects of mechanical watches, such as dial and design aesthetics, which were of secondary importance to me a few years ago.

The variety of people here is very important for the site and can lead to a broader understanding of horology as well as ourselves (or our reactions to things). For me, I find it hard to understand why anyone wouldn’t be fascinated by the mechanics of a multi-axis tourbillon, but clearly there are those, such as yourself, that are content to watch it go around without needing to understand how and why. Coming to the PuristS with an open mind is a good thing because it allows our focus to broaden.

Just as you mention, there are many of us that dream/hope that our offspring will adopt our philosophies of collecting and life (the PuristS manifesto?), but all we can do is introduce our interests to them and hope that the spark ignites something deeper.

Good luck with your search and please let us know how it progresses.

Kind regards

Andrew

I found "but clearly there are those, such as yourself, that are content to watch it go around without needing to understand how and why." hillarious but that does describe very well my level of sophistication in time piece collecting or lack thereof at this point in time but I have to start somewhere I guess.

I learn more and more here and elsewhere each day and as detrimental to my bank account as I know it will be, I'm hell bent on at least 2 more good (my definition that is pieces to add to my datograph so that each of my 3 kids will have something together with the memories, values and principles I hope to impart to remember me by when the time comes.

Maybe by then, I can contribute much more on the mechanical genius and beauty of these time pieces which hopefully wil in its own way help others to make a more informed choice that suits their needs and capacity.

Cheers!

Piece by piece from affordable is the "best" for learning about watches and about oneself.

Love for timepieces does not come suddenly but through owning and enjoying something "lowly" and learning all about it along the way.

The other thing is, I could not speak for others, when I started I have limited financial resources and it would be impossible for me to stalk after some top price pieces.  So it is natural to start simple and move on to the more "complicated".

If I should have all the financial resources at my disposal from the very start I could straight away and go for the best stuff but I would probably lose much in the way of educating myself.  In fact I started with second hand pocketwatches and as I understand and appreicate the intricacies more  in each pieces that I move on. 

Having said that, my preference also changes over the years.  My buying desire sort of slows down as I "look" more than buy even though I probably can afford more pricey pieces nowadays.  I am sure this change is brought about by my continuing learning from my growing collection.  I still love all my earlier pieces and have not sold a single one since I started.

W72

Look, I'm wearing my watches! All of them! And I like to enjoy doing this.

Buying "the best" of each (chrono, tourbillon, minute repeater, you name it) ? If I don't like it I don't buy it. Period!

Yeah I know, the cotes de geneves (perlage, anglage, chauffage) on the Roger Dubuis is better than the one on the VC. But if the RD does not touch me, no cotes de geneve will make me part with my hard-earned cash.

C'mon people, it's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. If you stop enjoying it you better leave it - if you just want investments, go for bonds!

amanico: I'm a hi-fi freak myself (yes, including cables and all that). Nice to see I'm not alone

Regards,

Costin

 

I allways try to find out the true value of watches , what are element of holorogy which have true value and last for long time : Innovation in movement , design concept, craftman ship , or historic of brand ... ? I think each collector have list of element  for himself . It would reflect our inspiration , aesthetic, desire , knownledge ...

Base on that , I try to consider about  " fair price "

Beside that , I think the happy is the process , not only the target . We are happy in the process of study about the watch which we like , not only happy when we own that watch . I am happy when I known more about that watch, about holorogy . The knownledge would help me feel I am collector .

Just my though

Best

 

If I had unlimited funds and I could purchase the ultimate collection, for me it would be meaningless. The approach to collecting that works for me is a gradual one. The walk is a fine enjoyment, although I do not know yet exactly where it is I am going.

I believe ultimately one collects watches mostly because of what they represent. At least in my case I know this is correct.

Although my bank account says I am poorer after I purchase a piece, somehow I feel richer.

... hence it is the act of discovery, not the one of possession that ignites the spirit (not that the later is to be understated - it is a daily victory of passion over habit).

Therefore, building up a collection takes time and patience both in researching on the latest watch you got stuck on, and, maybe even more important, in understanding how that particular machinery is truly and authentically fitting you very own profile and taste. As such, this journey provides the precious (and, alas, expensive) experience of discovering your own self.

I read somewhere that kitsch is anything that pretends to be something else than what it really is. Thus I may suppose that a most extraordinary watch my be worn as a kitsch, if it does not suit the wearer at all.

Hi Andrew

You can use " Cliff Notes"  of a book if you were in a jam for an exam or report .  But there is nothing like READIng the original material directly.

The "journey" should be not undervalued.   I have friends who take their buying tips from the "pros" and or "experts" and end up with a  " NICE" item.   It always left me a bit short of the finish line.

For me collecting anything there is a quest for knowledge ....  I first  start with books and trade mags... and then start to buy stuff that I find interesting.  No matter what it is I always wind up with vintage equipment... Take Hi-Fi equipment...  I only wanted tube stuff....  Started with a fisher 500c ... time window speakers...  I then upgraded to a super clean Mac 225 ...  i found a set of KLM Model Six speakers and then went back to the Fisher 500c... ( go figure ! ) my audio source was CD at first then a Revox A77 Reel to Reel ...  Not top equipment but I found it very enjoyable.

I then progressed to " Things with Springs " .... early phonographs to Chelsea Clocks to Marine Chronometres to Omega watches... Go figure..

Currently finding the  Wittnauer All-Proof was the first waterproof/shockproof/antimagnetic watch ever produced (see Bruce Shawkey article NAWCC BULLETIN Vol. 39/6, No. 311, Dec. '97) and was designed for and used by many early explorers, even seeing service on Admiral Byrd's Antarctic expeditions. The All-Proof was also worn by early aviation pioneer Jimmie Mattern on his solo around the world flights.

Pricewise I know people would spend more on a nice strap for a watch then what you can get a allproof for !!   I am a sucker for Vintage  state-of the art  technology !!










Good Hunting

Bill Sohne

Hi Bill,

 

I have been away for a few days, but it was a pleasure to come home and read your post. I completely agree with you that the journey is important, and for me, much more important than the destination. In fact, in horology, there is rarely a destination, just more traveling on a well worn path.

 

I enjoy the history of horology and each watch represents a page in that history book. I am very happy to be guided by those who have walked the path before, but ultimately we have to decide what is important for ourselves and in our collections.

 

So much of the past tells us why we are here in the present and provides a blueprint for planning out the future. I enjoyed your story very much and certainly relate to your comments on valve audio equipment.

 

Regards

 

Andrew