Horological Meandering

Hello All.

As, according to the papers, we're all tightening our belts I wondered what Purists consider to be 'good value' watches.

By good value (and you're welcome to add your own definition) I mean that balance between: price, innovation, finishing, design (movement and/or case), overall quality etc. That does'nt therefore necessarily mean cheap!!

I've posted here because I have no agenda re any particular brand.

I love lusting after the horological hierarchy and the wonderful machines we see on here but thought I'd have a look from the opposite end so to speak.

Just thought it might be interesting as a topic.

Feel free to change the rules etc.

Best to all.

Vernon.

added to Editor's Pick

This message has been edited by AnthonyTsai on 2008-01-09 21:22:38

Click here  to see it.

- SJX

Certainly not cheap, but FAR undervalued on the secondary market IMHO.

If you don't mind smaller watches (36mm and below) there are all sorts of great buys like the AP Quantieme Perpetuals.

Even with (or perhaps as a result of) the ludicrous bubble for "sport luxury" watches in gold + the fancy material of the day, there are a lot of undervalued watches out there especially if one is smart on the used market.  Out of these, the GP triples bridges tourbillons and AP striking watches and other high complications are probably the best "money for value" watches out there.  Not cheap in terms of dollar amount, but in my opinion the craftsmanship, complexity and rarity of these watches cannot be compared to the crap (and there is so much out there) floating around these days. 

Prices have gone up a bit, but the VC historique chrono is still a good value.  It's not the same interpretation of the Lemania movement as the Patek 5070 (as readily revealed by a quick look at the movement), but still quite a deal (not to mention just a classically beautiful watch) if you can find one.

I personally would also say many of the ultra complex Ulysse Nardin watches are also undervalued and underappreciated.  Regardless of whether they feature ETA or Claret movements, watches like the hourstriker and the astrolabium are truly unique pieces. 

I'll personally take any one of the above over a "Formula one racer/movie star/rapper carbon fiber/rubber/platinum bezel XYZ87-79 Wham Bang Boom Cyborg Racer X-large Magnum Not Enough Chrono [Insert City Name] Boutique Special Limited Edition Version 8.2.5.8abc" any day.  Admittedly many of these watches look quite cool, but I find it hard to justify to myself the prices that these peices are commanding these days.

To each his own, I guess...

- Daniel 

With blunders like that, it's quite obvious that my screen name was deliberately chosen...

 

Christophe Claret ( used to be part of AP-RP, nee RPC) but the Hour Striker is a Renaud et Papi development and production.

I agree with most of your comments, and Steve's.

But (both) your comments are predicated on SECONDARY market prices; in the PRIMARY markets, considering MSRP, the AP QP and GP TGBT are not so "undervalued" and the "hot" boutique racer X limited editions or "rumoured to be discontinued" models are not so absurdly over-valued.

Come on; $120k for a 5970!?!

5712 for $60k?!? when the same movement in PRECIOUS metals languish in the low-$10k's?!?

It's a fad/fashion/lemming driven market right now and the only consolation for old timer (read: committed, serious) watch aficionados are the relative "steals" to be had by the great pieces pushed to the shadows.

TM

The first watch in a LONG time that I've bought new and paid retail (actually a bit above) for is the Seiko Discus Burger from a few posts down.  Hoping there will be value there.

Admittedly I would not even look twice at the GP and UN complications on the primary markets.  For that matter, with yet another 10% plus MSRP increase in the works for all major brands, I have pretty much stopped considering new watches from non-AHCI members - the "luxury" branding and overt greed of much of the industry have turned me off to this hobby in the past year or two. 

BTW, seems like some people are already ratching the price up on 5970s on "market rumors."  Mamma mia!!

 

- Daniel

" the "luxury" branding and overt greed of much of the industry have turned me off to this hobby in the past year or two. "

 

I would not, across the board, let ACHI members off the hook. Paul Gerber, Svend Andersen, Vincent Calabrese? Incredible value (others who insist on "completely proprietary movement" may vehemently disagree); others - varying degrees.

 

And yes, PG, SA, VC have their weaknesses; but again, considering what they deliver against what others deliver (in all areas except "buzz" and zeitgeist) they are incredible bargains, in BOTH primary markets AND secondary markets.

Chapeau, Mr. Gerber, Mr. Andersen, Mr. Calabrese!

TM

...in my original post, but I agree Thomas that membership in the AHCI alone should not spare certain watchmakers from equal scrutiny and, in some cases, the same criticism.  From past conversations, I think I have some ideas who you are referring to.   Personally, I am still kicking myself at letting the Andersen moonphase get away...

This hobby used to be one way for me to get away from the stress of the daily grind, but these days so many aspects of the industry merely fuel my cynicism.  Ok, no more whining from me...

 

- Daniel

This whole line was discontinued earlier this year, and the secondary market prices have been rising steadily over the last several months.  If you can still find one at an AD, you should buy it if this is the sort of dress watch that appeals to you.  Here are some photos of my 1815 manual:






This message has been edited by MTF on 2008-01-09 10:02:36

. . . residual value as a criteria. I rather hope you did, if only because it fixes the context of your question to being concerned about watches rather than a question about assets, in which case my choices would be rather different. I personally don't count residual value as a consideration when purchasing watches, but if it's important to you, then you're limited to the "blue chips": as a rule, most Pateks and Panerais, some Langes and Rolexes, and of course those watches that have special appeal, like the Dufour Simplicity. Assuming you didn't include potential appreciation as a criteria, then my choices would be largely Glashütte Originals, especially the Panograph, but also their perpetual calendars and simple manual winding designs, all of which offer a high level of finishing on top of their other mechanical and aesthetic attributes. Other choices would be: (1) most any steel Dornblüth, which scores well overall including on residual value, (2) Chopard L.U.C, which I think of as comparable to G O in terms of overall quality and value, and (3) the Omega central tourbillon, which is an amazing design that is priced under it's competition. Cordially, Art

I did'nt mention residual value or investment potential - I wanted the answers to be about watches as watches, not investments.

I'm also not looking for a recommendation as to what I should buy (although you never know something might spark a desire!) as I already know what i want next! I was simply interested to see what peoples responses would be.

I have a few ideas myself but did'nt want to influence - so I'll mention them at the end if no one else does!

I'm finding this interesting already - so thanks for your thoughts and keep them coming!

Best.

Vernon

. . . Parmagiani to my list, Vernon, especially the Kalpagraph. They qualify as a manufacturer, as do G O and Chopard, and while I've never owned one, a steel Kalpagraph is a distinct possibility . . . cordially, Art

If your question isn't about residual value but about which brands have the highest ratio of quality/finishing to price, you should probably include Chronoswiss.  There's obviously some debate about whether Chronoswiss measures up to true high-end brands.  But there's no debate that Chronoswiss price points -- particularly for the complicated models -- are far, far below the price points of corresponding models of the high-end brands.

(While we're on this topic, I've seen spectacular photos of highly polished, exceptionally complicated Citizen models on this site.  Of course they have quartz movements.  But they cost about 1% of what you'd pay for a similarly complicated watch with a mechanical movement.  Is it worth it to pay 100 times more for gears and springs on the inside?  Tough to answer. )

At the end of the day, the question you pose in this thread reduces to one of the following:

1.  What is the "true" intrinsic value of a mechanical watch with attractive finishing; or

2.  What will the market bear for such a watch?

As you must know, there is no answer to question 1, and discussions about it tend to fly off into radical incoherence.  There is also rarely a clear answer to question 2, although the people arguing that question at least have some common frame of reference:  objectively quantifiable prices.

Fascinating question to ask, though.  - Jon

even when released in 1996 it wasnt expensive, but the technology it contains is ground breaking. 3 patents on movement, the first perp where you can turn date back as well as forwards, first perp where everything is crown set no need for resessed pushers, a proper perp with year rather than 1,2,3,L dial. a Ludwig Oeschlin invention so designed by a master and the first of the now very famous UN perpetual family. ltd edition of 150 in red and 150 in yellow gold. chronometer certified. probably one of the easiest to read perps on the market(as are the rest of the family)

prices should be sky high, but current used prices are well below what you would expect of a watch with such credentials.

off the top of my head i think its 38mm so perfect for everyone from small wrists to large wrists.

 

 

i am biased because i own one.

i also agree with Chronoswiss. i own a gold/ss delphis which is a superb watch with unusual display using an historic Enicar movement. i'm trying hard, but cant sell it for love nor money at what i consider to be fair(well below 1/2 price for a mint item). a lot of dealers have never even heard of them let alone sell them. movement finish isnt perfect, but dial finish is superb. with that write up i suppose i should keep it

 

 

2 great watches that arent appreciated enough.

Graham

 

As you know the horological world is experiencing a bubble now and with the coming possible US recession, it may affect demand for high end watches but that's another story. Most top brands now are overpriced so value may come from watches whose brands  are not regarded as "money-maker" for some (you know who) or regarded as a "must-have" to show off to one's circle of friends.

And example would be Patek 5070 vs. Malte chrono...same mov't base...both TOP brands but 5070 is clearly the winner cause of Patek's highly regarded name. Anything with Patek on it is valued high. VC, on the other hand, has yet reached the cult status of Patek's. I am not talking about quality as the qualities of both are unsurpassable. AP's ROO...so popular, people would kill for their LEs (not me though :p)...do they offer value at $30-40+k? You be the judge. Many other examples.

So, to me good value is something of high quality (differs with every person's taste & knowledge), but priced "fairly" cause it is not hyped. When you have to beg to get one and the price is outrageous (PP 5980?), does it still offer value? It's just a watch. I value my money much better!   

 

  

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My Good Value Watches ...

1/ Ulysse Nardin:

The Freak:



The Perpetual Calendar:



Why UN?

Just because of the innovation, and the simplicity to use the PC.
As for the Freak, this is an icon watch, a milestone quite underated for the moment!

2/ JLC:

The Minute Repeater, for obvious reasons.
Esthetically, which is, I admit, very subjective, but one of the very nicest MR.
JLC gave some youth to this complication, and this one sounds like no other.
In some years, we'll still speak about it, and it will be recognized, IMHO, as it really deserves.





The Amvox II, because of its original Chrono system, with no crown!



And the Doumetre, for that...Any comment is useless..



3/ Lange Datograph, a reference between the Chrono Range...Just go on it before they Stpo it, or before the price goes to heaven...



4/ Other brands like Rolex ( the Yacht Master), Breguet ( The Tradition), VC ( The Chrono Malte), GP( Aaaah, the Vintage 45 Chrono in WG from year 2000...), Blancpain with its new FF reedition, Panerai with some Vendome or The Pre V as the Mare and the Logo, and I forget some...
You have indeed a big and vast choice!

Pilot Chrono with day date, limited edition and for good cause. Cheers rgds ks

But I think Sinn and Stowa seem to offer great value for the money. A bit lower in price than the watches discussed above, but I got the impression that was what the original poster was looking for. BTW, Have anyone a clue about Jaques Etoil?

for me its my latest purchase...

good value? omega speedmaster professional is one of the top watches i'd recommend to anyone in the less than US$3k range. the look of it hasn't changed much down the years and the hesalite is still there in the current lineup... but what ticks within is another matter...

truly good value is this watch and whats in it too (picture below)... a fine vintage chrono movement cal. 321, based on the lemania 2310 which has been used by patek ch27-70 for the 5070, vacheron constantin ref 1141 for the malte chrono and others, breguet and most importantly in the 1960s, omega for its speedmaster(important cause I can afford this one ).

it is the watch that stood up well to some ridiculous tests concocted by some watch s&m dudes, been to space, to or near the moon and for this 1968 watch, its keeping absolutely great time (used my other reliable timekeeper, my rollie sub to make sure of that) nuff words and better pics will surface another day but for now...



dang... noticed a little problem with one of the chrono hands but that can be addressed... add it to the list of works (hey its older than me yuh )...

cheers
raph

Firstly - thanks to all who posted responses. I love the diversity of opinion on ThePurists and the debate it fuels. I have really enjoyed the responses to my question.

I don't believe, however, that 'value' necessarily means cheap - I think there is probably value to be had at all price levels, although we do normally automatically go to the lower price levels when the word value is mentioned. i can on;y really speak from experience at my end of the market - where value is probably more important to me!

If a watch makes me really happy and i don't dwell on the price - then it's probably been good value.

I've owned quite a few (on my scale that is - some of you guys make me sooo jealous!) watches over tha past few years, including one time where I had six Pateks at once (since fell out of love with Pateks though!), as well as Rolexes, Speedmasters, Nomos, a Lange (a lovely watch) etc. I've currently 'edited' my 'collection' a bit and am slowly building up again - it's amazing how our 'taste' evolves is'nt it, and how many times we look back on the what if's.

Given my current thinking, which of course changes, i would suggest/single out the following as representing particularly 'good value' at the moment, to me that is: I still like the Patek 96 and think this is a good value vintage watch (I had a cracker and it's the only Patek I wish I'd kept!), the Nomos Tangomat, I agree with the suggestion of Dornbluth, I agree with GO (I really like the Senator Navigator with date), the MIH watch, Moser. There are, however, many many others too!!

I also note and agree with those suggestions posted, only one of which I was a little curious about - the new Blancpain Fifty Fathoms. I really like this watch but had not really thought of it as representing 'value' particularly.

I alsohave a soft spot for Speake Marin and love MB&F but, do they represent value?? Maybe that's for when I don't have to think about value!

The main watch i am currently saving for (and hoping to acquire before the end of the year) is a Journe CS - now I think this watch represents good value but others may disagree!

Thanks again to everyone.

Vernon.