Independents

I realise that independent watchmakers give the market a different alternative and a lot of their movements and finishing are arguably superior to that of mainstream watch manufacturers. However, in the areas of accuracy, long term reliability and service times, how well do independent manufacturers stand against the likes of Lange and Patek who over the years have improved accuracy to +3 -2 seconds a day and are generally known to produce very reliable watches.

Thank you for your opinion.

Sham

A production sample of the Greubel Forsey Double Tourbillon Technique cal. GF02s won first prize in the 2011 International Competition Chronométrie, scoring 915 points out of a possible 1000 points after weeks of rigorous Observatory and COSC style testing.

The watches that you mentioned are indeed amazing timepieces but they are at a price bracket not within the reach of the majority of watch enthusiasts. If one were to compare like with like (or almost like with like) in terms of pricing, how well would a similarly priced watch from an independent compete with a similar watch from a mainstream manufacturer.

I hear that although Gruebel Forsey watches are unique and highly accurate, there have been problems with their reliability as there have also been with FP Journe's Chrononometre Resonance. One might argue not enough had been spent on research and development of these watches due to the obvious budget constraints. They are wonderful pieces though.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

The GF is certainly an extreme example!  It is difficult to know how to compare 'like with like', though, when comparing Independent watches to mainstream brands; for example, the JLC watches which took the first two places in the chronometry competition of 2009 were the Master Tourbillon and the Reverso Gyrotourbillon 2 - neither a 'cheap' watch by any measure (although still comparative bargains compared to similar offerings from other haute horlogerie houses).

...an example of Kari's achievement with the P260:

Thank you for the information and I have always been in awe of Kari Voutilainen. He does not only make beautiful watches but his attention to detail and accuracy is second to none. His watches are in a different plain even compared to the best independents (Philip Duffour)and this is reflected in his prices.

But how about the more affordable independents like Lang and Heyne, FP Journe, H Moser, Manufacture Royale, Svend Andersen, Speake Marin, Sarpaneva, etc.?

They offer reasonable pricing, fantastic service before, during and after the sale, are great people, offer tremendous flexibility in creating the piece you want, and the pieces are great fun to wear. I am not saying the finish is like a Lange or KV, but for me the work provides tremendous value. It is very accurate as well. Since I love threads with pix, here is my dead second foudryant which has customized balance cock.

Sorry, I can't find a pix this morning of my back Best, Joe

Lovely photo of a lovely watch. I will certainly look into Habring as it seems to satisfy the necessary criteria.

Much appreciated.

Sham

Thanks for posting the rate results...truly inspiring.

The real question is what are your criteria.
I think all of the idependents produce watches with above average timekeeping qualities.
That is somehow a minimum for a watch, but what do you require more?
If the timekeeping is the only criteria then one could quickly take a look at the last couple of Chronometrie Concours and buy a Tissot.
But the independent watchmakers offer so much more than just something which can tell you the time.
Who needs a watch for that these days anyway.
Ideas, finishing exclusivity, personal contact, continuing traditions......  so many reasons to purchase from an independent.
Don


(I did an informel survey of the watchmakers I know, all practising watchmakers, a while ago questioning which are the most accurate and reliable watch movements.  None of them mentioned anything other than ETA and Rolex.)

Personally, accuracy (+3 -2 seconds daily) and long term reliability with good after sales service are important to me but I also value craftsman ship and exclusitivity (yes I know, I want it all!) so perhaps a Tissot may not make the grade. A Voutilainen would of course but even a basic Vingt 8 would be out of reach for the majority of us.

My question was more a general one comparing the accuracy and reliability of independents in general  to mainstream manufacturers. Are they as reliable? Are they as accurate? I know their movements are often more beautiful with arguably a larger content of hand finishing and would be largely more exclusive but perhaps many might decide to buy from a mainstream manufacturer for peace of mind especially if the purchase is a large one. A tricky decision to make at the best of times.

I guess it is like deciding between buying a Ferrari or McLaren against a Spyker or Weismann.

Sham

 

Well, Sham this is a natural question to ask.

I've been holding, discussing and reading a lot about independent brands and this is what I came up to.


Accuracy.

From what I saw in traditional brands and Independents, all reach the same accuracy (more or less). They have now the knowledge, the machines and the material quality that allow quite easily to achieve acceptable accuracy.

Indies usually know quite well their movement and thus reach to set them well too.

Please note that under a certain level I don't think one can really compare watches' regularity under a 2-4 sec/day margin: it depends on the way you wear it, the temperature etc...

When someone says I'm +1 or -1 by day, I don't believe it personally.

So, everyone is sufficently accurate considering it is a mechanical watch.


Reliability.

All brands suggest respecting a servicing period which enables the wearer to usually keep away from problems. Anyway you can usually postpone this 4-5 years period to 7-8 without taking significant risks.

Except a very few exceptions which are not by the way implying the whole collection of the brand, the watches are reliable. It often happens for very unusual displays and I guess the risk is higher and that's what you wish to go for (when you are aware of th eproblem of course, not when you discover it). But, again there are very few example of malfunction.

They use usually well known materials (steel, gold, maillechort) and thus we really know their characterisitcs and life expenctancy.

Even if most of the indies are less than 20 years old, thus we don't have a very long period to study issues, I don't hear more problem fro Indies compared to traditional brands which also have their black sheep.

The question we can ask is how silicon parts or other exotic materials will age? I think that even in that issue, the servicing fees will include replacmeent parts if need.
The question will remain valid if the brand is not there to do the servicing anymore in the future.


Time servicing.

I would say traditional brands=Indies in that mattter.

I would even give a +1 to the indies as they are easily available to talk to and explain what problems we are facing.



I noted you talked about prices comparision between indies and tradies with Pplater. Of course, Indies will usually remain more expensive than a Trady for a same complication. They don't produce the same volume and pay much more attention to crafting, they bring something else (exclusivity, rarity, personalisation etc...).

If the price is an issue, if you are not ready to pay for these Indies characterisitcs then Tradies will be difficult to compete with.

As we already discussed about on the forum, the only issue would be a going concern issue.

Cheers, Mark

You have answered all my concerns thoroughly. Much obliged.

With your info, I will be a lot more confident now buying from an independent!

Thanks again.

Sham

 

One thing I would add is if you are getting a very basic watch in terms of function, but superbly crafted, with basic materials, I don't think you will have trouble finding watchmakers to service your watch.

Completely Independent Company manufacturing everything in-house, very low production numbers (in the hundreds after all these years making them very very exclusive) on their VFA (Very Finely Adjusted) from 1968-72 and then later Specially Adjusted marked Special on the dial like the SBGH019 and SBGH020 which encase a high beat movement running at 36,000 bph with an accuracy of -2s +4 and no worries about servicing.

S

I have actually been looking into Credor watches which are only sold in Japan unfortunately but apparently are even more exclusive and better made than the legendary Grand Seiko.

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Sham

doesn t even come to mind when talking about indies.

Mo

Yes!!!!

for your views which I am sure are shared by many fans of the independents brands. I totally agree that one should not focus entirely on accuracy and reliability or else a Seiko Astron would wind hands down. However, my point was that the beauty of the movement and creativity of the independents like De Bethune,MB&F, Urwerk, Sarpaneva (to give a few examples) are all very well and must be applauded but that to me is not good enough if they lack accuracy and long term reliability. This again is my opinion because when spending so much on a timepiece, it is only right for the watch fulfill every criteria and not just that of beauty and exclusitivity.

Until the 90s, a Ferrari for example was not known for its reliability. People would buy the car for the excitement it created, its history,its design, the engine sound. Then came along the Honda NSX which showed that a supercar could be easy to live with and to drive and be relatively cheap to maintain as well. As a result Ferrari had to improve its cars in areas where it had been lacking and these days their cars can be used as every day cars and come with long warranties.

My point again is that as the watch market is a highly competitive field, I am hoping that independents are able to offer the watchworld everything a mainstream watch manufacturer can and more. They will never be able to compete when it comes to history and perhaps pricing but they should be able to hold their own in every other area. Again, I must thank Mark for the information he had gathered on the independents which is reassuring.

Sham

No message body

I understand what you are asking, comparing accuracy, reliability, and after service. But at the same time, like Don and Moc says, if those are the criteria, then maybe one is not ready for indies. It's not to say Indies are not accurate, or reliable, rather, it's not what they are about. 

Your views are appreciated. I am generally not a risk taker in anything I do so perhaps that sums up the type of watches I should be focusing on. But of course there are different types indies and some do offer the accuracy and reliability of the larger manufacturer but yet are exclusive and beautifully finished. These are the indies which I would like to target.

Thanks again Tom.

Sham

Therein lies our problem.