Independents

I want to be clear I am not trying to start something, and will say I have read some of the posts on why certain bands are included on this forum and others are not.  I just don't get a feeling that there is a lot of consistency on this subject, so I'm just wondering if there can be a more specific definition for who is included in this forum.

I'm not taking a stance either way for these 2 brands, but I would point to some recent examples to illustrate my point.  One is Sarapeneva, and there was a thread some time ago about why posts about his watches were on the HOME forum and asking if they belonged here on the AHCI forum.  The answers from back then as I recall them were to do with the level of work done being of high enough quality to warrant inclusion here, and from recent postings by mods on his pieces on the HOME forum, I have concluded that his work is not at the level required to be included here in the eyes of the staff.

In contrast, the postings made by Jocke show wonderful dials married to bone stock ETA movements from what I can see, so this doesn't seem to be consistent in my opinion.

I know this is a difficult thing to pin down, and previous responses from those who manage this site eluded to things like the feelings of the members as a whole having an influence on where the posts go.  So as a member I am putting forward my opinion - again I have nothing invested either way with the two brands I use as examples, but it seems to me that one or the other should be moved.

Cheers, Al

Hi Al,

I'm no moderator so i can only respond as one of the members and this is how you should read my post.

First of all Sarpaneva doesn't use stock ETA movements. He once started with Sarpaneva Uhren Fabrik (SUF) and in that time he used ETA movements indeed. But that's already history and these days he uses Soprod movements.
Sarpaneva does his own finishing on the Soprod movements. And even better, for the Korona series (yes, the serie with the extrordinairy beautiful dials) he modifies the date mechanism. The goal of his modifications is to keep the movement as flat as possible, so the date mechanism and disk are deeper in the movement main plate. I'm not that technical, so if i made a mistake in my description feel free to correct me
 
Personally i think a story like the one about Stepan Sarpaneva does belong in the main forum, because it's the story about the man behind the brand and all of his work. I would agree with you if it was a post about only one new watch, but this was not the case.
If there's story about the Felix Baumgarter and Martin Frei the post would also belong in the main forum. If the story was about a new watch made by Urwerk i think it belongs in the AHCI forum.

Cheers
Frank

please reread his post.
And I do agree with what AL said.
*CL

But i have no clue what i misunderstood in your opinion... You make one point and that's why a relatively small watchmaker using stock ETA movements comes in the HoMe forum.
My point is that i think the post refered to does belong in HoMe and to correct he doesn't use stock ETA for anymore.

Maybe i'm missing the point you're making and could you explain it ?

have misunderstood Al.
Al is referring to the watches posted by Jocke using ETA movement , not Sarapeneva.
Personally, I kinda have a vague idea of what belongs to HOME and what should be in this section (AHCI and Independent Haute Horlogerie)
And I really don't mind to see Sarapeneva to be seem in this section but if he does not belong here,
I'm not sure those watches posted by Jocke belongs here too.
But nevertheless, I am glad that they are both shown in this forum.
Just my thoughts, no offends meant
*CL

No worries CL, my mistake... i just saw the post by Jocke that was referred to. I thought of course the Sarpaneva watches where meant with "nice dial and stock eta".

Hello Frank,

Thank you for your reply, however I never said that Sarapaneva was currently using stock ETA movements, and the fact that he doesn't at this time makes the situation even more puzzling to me.  Since he is doing the level of work that he is, why is he not here rather than in the HOME forum, when we have a maker using stock 6497's and 6498's here in the ACHI forum?

Now about the posts being "about the man and not about a specific watch" on some level I can see the point you are making.  However I am puzzled why such a distinction would be made as that sort of adds to the confusion - however that is just my opinion.  But that aside, the last post on HOME was made about the K3 Black Moon Watch and the ceremony surrounding it, and details of the workshop.  To me, that seems to be clearly the sort of post that would be appropriate for the AHCI forum.

Again, I am not trying to start an argument, but I find the lack of consistency to be puzzling.  And again, in a previous post it was stated that part of the determination of where a maker would be featured was based on the views of the membership.  I guess I am making my views known, and those who control the site can make of it what they wish.

Best regards,

Al

However, it is quite puzzling to me that, like you Al - I too have often heard that "part of the determination of where a maker would be featured was based on the views of the membership."  Based on my own experiences the segmentation of Sarpaneva into HoMe is quite contradictory with popular opinion around here.

Stepan is more than qualified to be featured on the IHH forum.  If moderators would like tangible evidence of this statement, please feel free to PM me.

Best wishes,
Paul

Based on the contents of your post, you are a smart person.

Please tell us your considered view or conclusion about this alleged inconsistency.  Please don't beat about the bush.

Regards

Ling

I'm not sure why you conclude that I am beating around the bush.  I have stated quite clearly the posting of brands here seems inconsistent to me and I'm trying to better understand how the determination is made.

My impression was that to be considered for posting here, the "whole package" would need to be of very high quality, and the watches that Jocke posted don't fit that description in my opinion.  Counter that with what Sarapaneva does, and it does not make sense to me why one is here and the other is not.  As I have said previously, I have nothing invested either way in these 2 brands and only used them as recent examples that have been posted.  I'm just trying to understand the decisions being made.  If people here see this as some sort of attack, then they are mistaken - I don't care about it enough to attack anyone over it to be honest.

MTF has posted some "rules" that are followed that may explain some things, and in particular 2 things in his posts in this thread I didn't know before have come out in the open.  One is that brands may request their watches are posted in a specific area.  The other is that it appears that if one portion of making a watch is very "artistic" in nature it makes that okay to post a watch here, even if the movement is a run of the mill item.

Since you used the word "alleged" I take it that you don't see any inconsistency, and if so you are entitled to that view.  I don't really agree, but I am but one voice here.

Regards, Al

Let's enjoy the watches wherever they appear in this forum.  I am sure you have no problem with that.

Regards

Ling

deciding who is in HH and who goes to HoME. I don't think it is the intention of the moderators to 'judge' whether who is qualified as HH and who is not.

From my observation this site is a supporting, warm, and healthily-critical place. I am of the opinon that the categorization is mainly for ease of browsing rather than being judgmental. I am fine if any news falls in any category.  Most importantly, it is featured on this site.

The last thing we want to do is to 'chase' away young-potential-watchmakers who might prove to be the next horological treasure.

Just my 2cents views to share.

Pat

Thanks for the response.  Just a couple of quick points...

I don't believe the placement of posts is random based on what I have seen here before and the debates I have seen surrounding who should be included in the AHCI forum.  So I'm not sure that no one is judging the worthiness of the piece when they post it in HOME rather than here.  In my view that would part of the moderator's job to decide where the post is placed.

I do agree that we all benefit from having the content, and if the HOME forum is the best place to bring attention to a post, then a link can be provided there to direct people to the appropriate forum.  I see this quite often on the HOME forum when a particular moderator wants to highlight a post in a sub-forum, so I would think that having the post here with a post on the HOME forum would solve the potential problem of burying good content in a place that possibly some would not see it.

I certainly agree that no matter where it is, it is better to have the content than not all all.  Again I am just trying to understand the reasoning behind the decisions.

Cheers, Al

. . . the question of what is appropriate to post on the AHCI forum is a nuanced one . . . there is no 'master list' of independent manufacturers that a moderator can check against to determine whether a post belongs here or on HOME. You might recall that I posted my briefly-held RGM 222 on this forum last year; that series of postings was the source of a minor controversy, so if I, as a moderator, am unclear on this issue, then you can imagine how subtle and complex an issue this is for our management. The primary responsibility of determining whether a post belongs here or not is Don Corson's, and of course there are internal channels of consultation regarding these issues as well; just because a post appears here should not be taken as a sign of approval, as controversies do arise and are dealt with on an ad hoc basis. Cordially, Art

Thanks for chiming in - again I am just trying to get my head around what I see as discrepancies (for lack of a better word) where Don posted the very nice report on Sarapaneva on HOME, and has posted in Jocke's thread here that features the watches with stock ETA's in them.

I admit I may certainly be reading too much into this, but it appears that Sarapaneva is not considered high enough to be posted here, but the watches from Jocke are allowed to stay.  I have nothing invested either way, but it seemed odd to me.

Possibly based on MTF's post maybe Sarapaneva asked not to be posted about here - I would like to know if that's the case as it would help clear up some confusion.

Cheers, Al

1440,

The original "GoS" threads were placed (correctly by Jocke) in TimeOut, about knives and metal smithing skills.

The repost on this forum without mention of watch "brand" was just illustrative of the metal smith art, a component of skill sets needed to make watch dials, crowns etc.  Until I posted the "brand name" because someone asked, we were all focused on the smithy's dial work.

Yes  -  you are reading too much into it.

Please relax and enjoy the content here.

 

Regards,

MTF

 

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-02-12 12:18:34

I am quite relaxed.  I admit I'm puzzled about why discussing this seems to be taboo when it has been said before that part of determining where things go is dependant on member input, but I am relaxed all the same.

Thank you for your concern though.

Regards, Al

Al,

How can you not be relaxed when your state declared the state rock song is "Hang on Sloopy" in 1985?

How cool is that?

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-02-12 17:48:00

The dangers of relying on ISP tracking.  For the record I don't live in Ohio (or the US for that matter). 

Cheers, Al

Folks,

 

We have beaten this topic into submission many times before and in many variations.

You can search the history and evolution of this forum that started as a "favour to" or "recognition of" AHCI members who were struggling to be recognised before the current craze for "independent" watches. They had no advertising budget compared with the (then) big-2 conglomerates. Of course, now the "independents" have more cash than the brands proportionate to the number of watches actually produced 

I'm going to keep it simple:

1) AHCI members  --  easy decision.

2) Non-AHCI but independent (preferably 1 man and his dog rather than an investment fund) AND haute horlogerie  --  judgement decision.

3) Some "independent" watchmakers prefer NOT to be associated with the "AHCI and haute horologerie" forum because they:

a) Have different aspirations in art, mechanics and design aesthetics

b) Failed to get into AHCI

c) Did not qualify to apply for AHCI membership

d) Just prefer to be in the general discussion forums

e) Some AHCI members have their own forums e.g. FP Journe

 

The definition of haute horlogerie is not fixed but I refer you to an interview with the Fondation de La Haute Horlogerie Chairman - Franco Cologni - click here for some insights.

"You know when you see something good" - Final Arbiter

 

Finally, when all else fails to explain, the final arbiter, judge and jury is.................... me.  I have to live with it.

I thank you. 

 

Regards,

MTF

This message has been edited by MTF on 2009-02-12 10:33:28

No message body

Especially your last statement before the "thank you".

Thank you for being the "bad guy" to make this forum work.

Really appreciate your (and all moderators and ex-moderators) hard work and dedication.

Pat