Independents

Servicing a highly regarded independent watch is always a topic that interests me.
Unlike watches from Lange, Patek, Journes and other big manufacturers......most independent watches are done by a very small team of very talented watchmakers.
Classic Watches from Kari, Dufour and Vianney and Roger Smith are done in a way that are meant to be able to be serviced by any good watchmakers.......
True but what if the servicing requires more than a lubrication and needs some change of parts.....
Can anyone explains what usually needs to change during servicing and are those parts critical and strictly required to be parts produce
by the original watchmakers?
I guess Vintage watch collectors will be able to help as they tend to strictly require things to be in original form.

This servicing issue comes to my mind because, recently, I almost bought a PLM .
Under the loupe, one can tell that the watch hase been tempered as the blue screws are scratched.
This obviously is not done by Lange and base on what I found out, it's probably done by watch expert from auction house.
And after verifying with friends, it's true that auction house does have their watch expert opening up masterpieces to 'service' it.
This fact starts to worry me abit when it comes to watches from auction house and it starts to make me think
who shall I send my watches for servicing in future, if the watchmakers decide to retire.
At least , in this case, lange will be able to fix whatever 'damage' that has been done to this PLM should you send it back to its Glassutte Spa

I look forward to your thoughts
Lovesss*CL

What will happen in the future when parts may not be available.  I can only speak of one maker with any certainty.  Mr. Dufour had a Japanese watchmaker in his shop when we visited last summer.  He was just finishing his time there where he learned to be the official repairer for the Asian market (sorry going from memory here so hopefully I have all this correct).  I would guess the next best thing to having your watch serviced by the one who created it, is having someone directly trained by that person doing the work.

As far as what is "typically" changed at a service....the only thing that comes to mind off the top of my head is the main spring.  Not all watchmakers do this as a matter of course either.  My guess (only a guess) is that the mainsprings can be bought from any supply house by using the width, thickness, length and end type. 

Main spring aside, unless other parts are damaged due to some shock or other unfortunate incident, then a cleaning, oiling, and adjustment are all that is requried.

Cheers, Al

wow. Very interesting. I'm glad the craft has been passed on.........
Do you happen to know where this Japanese watchmaker operates?
Shellman?
*CL

good points..............if your getting cold feet regarding your simplicity just drop me a line -  I will help you.......LOL, no problem  ;-)

 true what Al says, though that there is a japanese watch maker (quite a young man as I remember)  so you should be ok. 

But I was speculating if the independants would repair each others watches - if say - one retired or passed away? Lets say if one had a Daniels, would Roger Smith do a repair/restoration or does the watch become a "museum/collection piece" and doesnt  run - but is merely admired as what it used to be?   This arrangement would be a way to give more "security" to the often very expencive AHCI pieces. But what about the less expensive pieces. Will they be worth a repair if a part had to be reconstructed by a third person. Sometimes (unfortunately) more is needed than just clean and oil - especially over time, parts get worn down.

 

Speculating...........

COD

I do have more than one Simplicity and a Kari coming......and I would probably want more Kari in future.
Hope they can work out a system that put collectors like us at ease
Lovesss*CL

No I don't.  I was paying more attention to the finishing lesson I was getting from Mr. Dufour actually. 

If not THE question regarding independent watches.

We have to consider several factors.

First of all, if it's simple or complicated watch.

The simplicity for example, due to its architecture is a very simple watch and a very robust one.

I think that even in 50 years, we wil able to find someone who will be able to service the watch or even better to "make" a spare part.

But with very complicated calibers, things are not the same.

Several examples come to my mind :

the "needles" system of Urwerk
the hour system of Hautlence
the specific caliber of the HM1
and so on...

Second factor : the strategy of the brand.

I discussed with Dominique Busser from Urwerk about this topic.

He told me that Urwerk produces a lot of spare parts to prepare the future and that they are focussed in creating a company with a continued existence.

I must confess if I'm confidend with Urwerk, that's not the case with some other brands. We have to consider that I met several watches which were not able to run 2 weeks without a trouble...

Fr.Xavier
 

Something could always go wrong with it.  You'd love to have the original artist repair it (and most artists go out of their way to make sure this is available and as easy as possible) but if that's not possible, there will always be someone else who can do it.  Hooray for capitalism.

Hopefully, there's enough such talents too.
Thanks SteveH.
Lovesss*CL

You have to find someone who will treat your watch as a piece of art.

I am lucky, I met a watchmaker who understands that each watch he touches is different and has different needs.

Being a meticulous person, I appreciate someone who pays attention to every last detail.

Someone who can set out objectives for what they will accomplish when servicing needs to be performed.

Someone who shares the passion for doing a job well and doing it correctly, even if it might take a bit more time.

Someone who understands that he/she is not just servicing a watch, but servicing a living thing with a soul.

"And after verifying with friends, it's true that auction house does have their watch expert opening up masterpieces to 'service' it."

Great scott!!! I agree with you CL. I would be terrified if and when they do this. I guess you are right, in some cases, the ignorant owner of a piece may authorise the house to open the watch. It is so damned stupid for the auction house to open a watch with a German Silver type movt ...crazy.

It goes to show what the hell is going on.

On a positive note, I think and I personally feel, that there is a trend growing for business in restorations of high complications and high complexities as in Urwerks and MBFs and Hautlence and RMs and so on.

This will be small specialists, similar to, and actually less prohibitive than, those doing custom restorations of race cars ( as these have safety problems).

I will not say "have no fear", but rather.."have great confidence" that the Urwerks and all the "great ones" will be looked after.

maintanance and for the Simplicity, but what of Kari's watches, which are vintage and observatory calibers?

though I would imagine though that Kari's work with these vintage movements would be relatively easily solved/replicated by his fellow Aeon Time group which was formed to support each other technically? At least that was to my understanding from reading their mission statement before. Of course, we are talking about making the movement work only and not a refinish... Interesting... Thanks for posting...

I had a similar impression relative to this group -- that one of its aims was to ensure that the creations of the members would have excellent long-term service support at the same level of quality as the original production.

 

so I am certain there will be someone similarly talented to service Kari's work 50 or 100 years from now.

- SJX

nt

if I get a positive answer, my confidence will shoot thru the roof and will cause more damage to my wallet
AHCI pieces are really tempting.
Lovesss*CL

as for more damage to your wallet, NO problem. Just get another one.

...inherent in the re-generation of  the profession itself? When we look back on the careers of many of today's great watchmakers we find often that they served their 'apprenticeship', as it were, repairing and restoring valuable and complicated pieces of other manufactures. Vianney Halter at Breguet, AP and Franck Muller; Kari Voutilainen at Parmigiani with Charles Meylan; Dufour himself for JLC, GG and AP. All the while, younger watchmakers follow that same path. They are the AHCI candidates; or the watchmakers who learn at the ateliers of the current masters and emerging personalities like Becsei, Gauthier and others.

As it was, as it is, as it shall be. There will always be someone carrying the torch and capable of servicing the fine rare birds - provided, of course, that we continue to support them.

 

Cheers,

pplater.

and trust the good olde $$$$ to sustain the fine art and the artisans, as long as patrons continue to support them.  Have no fear and take out your wallet lol....

First of all, thank to all of you for these posts. Such a discussion is always meaningful for both the watch collectors and the watchmakers ;-)

The question of transmission over the generations of the timepieces that we are passionated in is very important and shall be IMHO be taken into account from the design of a watch.

There are three ways for doing so :

1 : using parts and components produced on a large scale, so that it will be always possible to find spare parts in the future just by sourcing them from suppliers' stocks. In that respect, implementing ETA movement in watches is a reasonable manner to secure a quite easy after-sales follow-up.

However I guess this is not what our customers are awaiting from us :-(  !!

2 : another option is a derivation from 1:  It is producing watches with specially developped movements but in so big quantities that a certain number of pieces produced can be sacrified and used as a stock of spare parts for the surviving pieces. This can ensures the availability of spare parts for quite a long time.

Once again, this is probably not what our customers are awaiting from us. In addition, as independant we are not sized and orgnized for mass-production :-(( !!!!

3: the third way (my way ) is designing and producing  watches liable to be serviced or repaired by a reasonably talented watchmaker in one century (or more) from now.

All my watches are designed and manufactured with consideration to this. Any component used inside our movements can be produced if necessary by a single watchmaker using traditionnal watchmaking tools.

That is the reason why I do not use so called "modern" technology that could turn "obsolete" in 20 or 30 years from now. I use only established technologies that can be repeated by an isolated watchmaker in his workshop, pretty much as I did 20 years ago when restoring very old watches and clocks.

As an example, I am quite reluctant to the very recent silicium based tech (although I am convinced that this is interesting in terms of producing very accurate micro-components). As a matter of fact, this technology requires industrial equipments similar to those used in the chip industry. This will be out of reach for an isolated watchmaker and perhaps even the process itself will be forgotten in 100 years !

Considere that it is already impossible to repair a Hamilton Pulsar watch (the first LED watch) that is only 35 year old !

Our concern for the long-term future of our watches is one of the reasons that made us (Ph Dufour, K. Voutilainen, St. Forsey and myself) gather in Time Aeon so as to train a new generation of watchmakers able not only to create new watches of tomorrow but also to restore, repair and service timepieces of today.

All of this ensures very long-term follow-up even if one can foresee that the cost of this restoration could become tremedous ;-)

Lat but not least, after-sales is a serious problem,  humourously nicknamed by F.P. Journe as "the cancer of watchmaking" : even if we do not want to take care of it we HAVE to take care of it.

And the most efficient way I found to make this burden as light as possible is to design and produce VERY reliable watches, so that they come back to the workshop as less often as possible !

I hope the above will be of interest for all The Purists.

Best regards

 

Vianney Halter

 

 

 

Thanks so much for sharing your perspective on this with us!

_john

and I hope that other watchmakers are taking your dictum "to design and produce VERY reliable watches, so that they come back to the workshop as less often as possible !" to heart.

Don

I totally agree with your method and hoping the future young watchmakers possess good finishing skill too
when they recreate the necessary components
I'm a photographer and the way technology has advanced in my field has actually made many young photographers
lost the the understanding of traditional craft such as printing or old methods of previsualising.....everything is relied on computer now.
So alot of time the work produce is a bit lack of soul and without that 'magical touch'.
I welcome new technology but strongly feel that one must possess the knowledge and the skill of the traditional craft too.
It makes a different
Lovesss*CL