Harry Winston

I appreciate digital quartz watches?

infact, I quite like the concept of the watch. It kinda reintroduce the history of watch revolution in the 70s to the younger watch collectors now.
It is not progressive in a physical way but truly it has the spirit of a progressive concept. Remaking a quartz watch using mechanical movement, quite a high concept.....very much like what some of the very best advant garde fashion designer will do.
Hi concept fashion designers like Rei Kawaikubo (Comme des Garcon), Junya Watanabe, Martin Margiela, Jun Takahashi (Undercover), Victor and Rolf....have
all used this approach before to great success. I do appreciate the idea and the execution bits..........it doesn't matter to me that some think the watch is ugly or even reminded them of an era (quartz) they hated. To me, I think the watch is really fun and quite a refreshing OPUS 8.
Honestly, I'm quite sick of Opus series after Opus 5. Opus 6 and 7 did very little to me.....it has a very similar yawn yawm effect of who's looking stranger.
Before I know, Max came out MBF1 and 2.
Am I impress???
NO.. It has the same effect of trying to achieve a 'weird, progressive, look at me ' watch.....it is like the continuation of earlier OPUS series. The watch looks somewhat progressive but I feel that it lacks something.........the progressive concept and thought. Opus 5 , URWERK 201 are more successful in this area.
But, personally, as an artist, I can sense that Max gets it and definitely heading the right direction to find his voice. I know in my guts, the next MBF or even the future MBFs will make me lust for them
Back to Opus 8.......I love the hi concept / low tech (of course a disguise) but I'm quite repulse by the price.
I selfishly think that a watch of such concept will be more successful when introduced in a price range reachable to most collectors, in contrast with the usual
Opus series. Very similar to what MBF 2 has done.
So, do I like the watch????
Errrrrrrrrr......I actually think it is quite LOVELY.......very similar to Opus 3, conceptually.......ok., ok...I LOVE IT but I CANNOT AFFORD IT!!!
Lovesss*CL

. . . but that's never stopped me from having an opinion before and it ain't gonna stop me now ;-) .

Cheers,

J.

. . . both here and elsewhere as for reasons which I understand intellectually but which don't resonate for me emotionally so many seem to be initially horrified at Opus 8!  I'm not sure what about it has drawn so much fire.  A slide operated mechano-digital watch seems like a pretty cool piece of kit to me, and as I remarked to Dr. Cheong by email it's not as if the appropriation of pop culture forms for high craft/art purposes is exactly unheard of; it happens in fashion (constantly) it's been a mainstay of the work of artists from Duchamp to Jeff Koons to Robert Rauschenberg, Lichtenstein, Jasper Johns, Warhol, et cetera ad nauseam.  As a strategy in the abstract, in fact, it's so deeply interwoven into the fabric of the evolution of design forms as to be a commonplace, so I don't have it in me to dislike the watch on the basis of its general strategy of formal appropriation.

As a mechanical complication I find it pretty fascinating- it takes nothing away from the De Grisogono to say that it's a completely fresh and unique way of implementing a digital time display.  The DG has its charms as well but it, too, quotes electronic time displays in its design, at least to my eye, albeit it's Nixie tube displays rather than LED/LCD displays.

From a critical standpoint, this is a watch which to me seems to be a lot about the user's interaction with it as well; I was lucky enough recently to have an experience of a pretty rare, pretty expensive, pretty powerful supercar about which I'd read a great deal but which I'd never been inside, and the huge disparity between what you imagine something is like to experience and what it's like to actually experience it can be pretty vast.  We judge our first impressions of all these Basel novelties on the basis of our (in many cases, such as yours and Dr. Cheong's admittedly very extensive) experience of other high end product, but nobody's ever done a piece like this before and I think the combination of visual animation and tactile involvement might well be experientially appealing in a way that initial product shots simply can't convey.  In fact, I'd bet you a beer on it (which is a safe bet because I'm on the other side of the planet from you although hey, if you get a chance to try the watch out and you still hate it, then I lose the bet and you can fax me your bar tab.  Ah, on second thought, based on your WFED postings, maybe not your bar tab.  I don't feel like explaining to the Missus why I'm covering two bottles of Batard Montrachet at some insider's secret temple of haute cuisine in Singapore ;-) ).

Is it an Opus to stand with the best of the Opus watches?  Frankly, the Opus series are a mixed bag in terms of their appeal to any one individual- from One through Seven there have been some that appealed to me enormously, some that left me cold, some that I thought were frankly misconceived, and I would have been very surprised to find Opus 8 a watch possessing universal appeal as well.  I find the design derivative in a good way, the implementation of the time display fresh and interesting, and the elevation of its historical points of reference fascinating; I think it's a clever piece.

Just first impressions, like most people's based on pictures, not on the actual watch, but I think it mightn't be a bad idea to at least have the thing in hand and see how it feels to play with it before going postal on the poor thing ;-) .

JIMVHO, of course,

Jack

Jack my Friend,

HWRT is a victim of its own successful past.

If any other non-great Name had brought this out, it would probably be opinion-neutral i.e. equal % of protractors and detractors. There may even have been some polite applause for the fancy mechanical mimicry of a $350,000 Casio G-Shock

We are all fully aware of the danger of quick volatility. That is why I advocate a measured and tempered opinion when in writing mode. But my "measured and tempered" opinion was of disappointment too.

The impression that I got from the punters (including myself) is that people are upset because of the perceived drop at HWRT in:

1) "Love 'n Heart"

2) Process of high horology

3) Great Works

So.....just lacking in the 3 Ps then:  People, Process & Product. 

 

I agree with you that all Opuses have had their supporters and detractors in varying proportions - remember 2 and 7?.......rather not. But, at least Opus 1 - 7 were all done AND presented with respect paid to the 3 Ps. 

Opus 8 was kinda sprung on us without personal touch. When one buys a $350,000 watch, one has to connect with the watchmaker, his boss, the office cleaner, the office cleaner's mother-in-law....whoever.....it's a team effort that springs from the leadership of a visionary from conception to birth. I love it when the cleaning-lady claims that she is part of the quality control team because she keeps the watchmaker's floorspace tidy.

 It is not a corporate press conference or committee to design a camel........it's a presentation of an OPUS; it's got to have love built-in.

But isn't any publicity good publicity?  

It's better than no reaction to some of the other offerings at Basel, eh?

Maybe HWRT can come back from 2 successive disappointments in Opus 7 and 8.....

Regards,

MTF

 

This message has been edited by MTF on 2008-04-11 09:34:38

. . . but (didn't you know a 'but' was coming) your critiques seem to be a criticism of PR lapses, not criticisms of the watch itself. . . and this is not to say, by the way, that at that price point (or for that matter any luxury price point- if I am spending 15K USD on a stainless steel sports watch from AP or PP I had damned well better feel the cleaning lady's emotional committment too ) we do not have a right to expect that sense of connection, but I'm curious as to what extent the watch is being criticised on its merits or lack thereof as a design, and to what extent it is being criticised as a PR event.

J.

It's NOT about Public Relations but more about Relationship with your buying Public and your own product.....on a personal level. At that price-point, you really, really want to be close to both. 

On American Idol ®, contestants get voted off, not solely on their voice (pitch, timbre, control) but on their song choice, image and connection with the audience....."Keep it real, dawg", as one judge puts it.

Apart from the loopy one in the middle chair, the judges always stress that even the great American public can detect when a contestant is "genuine" and produces a "whole package".

So, any critique is mainly about the watch in the context of it's target audience i.e. people with $350,000 AND expectations of an "Opus". If it were priced at $3,500 as a new brand X, there would not be much controversy. People who like the fad or novelty of design would buy it and it would not register on the "radar" for the rest i.e. it's kinda like the watches we see in street markets everywhere - Ueno (Tokyo), Canal St (NYC), The Bund (Shanghai) or Temple St (HK).

But the moment you venture amongst the Gods, claiming to have captured an ethereal Opus in your reticulum, you'd better have substance or you will be voted off the show (Quod erat demonstratum).

In the luxury goods business, you're selling the whole package. You may not have virgin thighs that roll out your Habana cigar or Swiss elves poising your watch-balance but customers want to feel that the products look and feel like they could have been made that way.

I've even had collectors tell me that they don't mind spotting tiny flaws in the polishing on a Xxxxxxxx Xxxxxx watch (that sells mainly on the quality of finishing) because, then, they knew for sure that it was a hand-polished watch!  So, the connection with the People as well as the Process makes the Product or.......even makes up for the Product.

Bottom line: It's a critique about the watch.....mainly. 

Regards,

MTF

. . . well, more specifically, I'm not sure that I'm willing to dismiss the watch's technical and design merits to a significant extent on the basis of a perceived lack of emotional comittment on the part of its designer and on the part of HWRT- for one thing I'm not, having watched the announcement unfold from the sidelines , in a position to evaluate the extent to which HWRT did or did not do a good job of crafting a sense of emotional connection with the process of the creation of Opus 8.  Your critique also presupposes an idealized concept of what, at its best, the Opus series represents and while it's true they are ideally aspirational objects in every possible sense of the word, the reality is that they have been very much a mixed bag, with some dramatic successes (which by the way were reviled by many, quite vitriolically, at first) but also some relatively uninteresting pieces and one very conspicuous no show (so far.)

I don't think I agree that Opus 8 is a lapse per se from the high ideals uniformly upheld by the Opus series of watches in general; my personal perception is that the Opus watches represent experiments- in mechanics and aesthetics- and are better viewed from that perspective, rather than from the perspective that a certain uniform level of unimpeachably high success that's achieved universal approbation exists throughout all the Opus watches, which, you have to admit, is manifestly not the case.

There isn't a single watch in the Opus lineup that's been a universal crowd pleaser, and I don't believe that it's in the tradition of the Opus series to try to achieve mass appeal.  As an experiment I find Opus 8 rather initially intriguing than off putting (though obviously we have some mixed reactions in general here ) .

I can appreciate that your expectations in that regard haven't been met, and you, Bernard, and others who feel a lapse in connectedness to the process of creation of the Opus 8 are of course entirely within your rights to find that good and sufficient cause to dismiss the watch but honestly, I think it ought to be given a chance to at least allow itself to be seen, operated, and in general sink in a bit before throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. 

Cheers,

Jack

I agree totally that Time should be given before throwing in the towel...

My understanding is that Opus 8 is still a mechanical watch mimicing digital.  That's pretty crazy stuff.  Look at Opus 3.  It is one of the ugliest watches I have ever seen, but everyone was going gaga (is it the right spelling?) over it.  I don't see why we can accept O3 but not O8. 

Actually I personally wouldn't mind having a watch like this if I can actually afford it, which will be NEVER.

cheers,

John

Sir,

You did not like th look and asked a double-negative question in the title.

But inside the posting, you also said you would not mind a watch like this .....if you could afford it.

So, is this a positive vote for the watch IF it were cheaper and not Opus-price?

Regards, MF

Although I don't like the look that much but I appreciate the mechanical sophistication.  Just like Opus 3, I would love to own one but again out of my budget even if it ever becomes available. 

I agree with Mike that Opus 2 and 4 are two of the most beautiful creations, but their methods of telling time are more traditional.

and the concept of its instantaneous 7 whip type design that is more difficult than a Grande Sonnorie or similar to one in execution.

Secondary to that...is that it used a 19th century numeric display from Cartier.

Note that it is REALLY taking all the kig's horses and all the kig's men to put it together...and yet they can't...even now at Renaud and Papi..a team is working full time on O3..and still???? This is already the second engineering team that worked on O 3. When I first saw O 3...it was the realisation that it was above a grande sonnorie in detail..and that it as 55,000...I regreted now ordering 10 pieces..today, I ain't making the same mistake....I saw MBF3, and I ordered 2. I saw O 8...I walked away.

In o 8...a pulsar type dusplay with a glass/crystal cover with a manually operated slide is tacky. There are almost 100 of these "designs" with poor mechanical movts, but no hand operated display of rubies, but rotating discs...going for $30 a pop. Fossil, Guess, and tons of vintage.

In other words..the O 3 had 2 ferrari engines driving 4 wheels front and back in a vintage bugatti body...the O 8..is a corolla with a ferrari engine.

But...this is a personal thing. Also a 10 month gestation is to me a rather rushed decision.

Now..the positive point..it is unusual watch for 2008..and tat's all.

This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2008-04-11 16:55:44 This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2008-04-11 17:01:06

"There are almost 100 of these "designs" with poor mechanical movts, but no hand operated display of rubies, but rotating discs...going for $30 a pop."

Hi Dr. Cheong. . . yes, but that is precisely the point, the thing is done very differently.  Putting a revolving disk with numbers on it on a dial in place of the hands is fun and funky but is essentially meaningless technically- you're turning a disk instead of hands, there's no mechanical innovation involved.

Arranging a whole system of gears and support pins which interact with the pixel elements so as to display the correct time on demand is, on the other hand, a fantastically complex technical achievement.  I absolutely don't dispute your complete right to dislike the watch on aesthetic grounds but to dismiss it on technical merit is just wrong IMVHO- this is as different from the cheap and cheerful vintage mechano-digital watches you're referring to as can be.  Whether the astounding mechanical ingenuity necessary to produce this effect has been ultimately deployed to good effect aesthetically and emotionally is of course a personal decision, but to compare the Opus 8 to, say, a Sicura Instalite (a charming vintage watch by the way but in no way even remotely comparable to Opus 8 mechanically) is simply misguided.  They're not even remotely comparable in complexity, fit, finish and execution.

Now again, you may quite rightly feel that the incredibly complicated mechanism necessary to implement the time display in Opus 8 is wasted effort, but let's make a critique based on meaningful comparisons.  The resemblance between Opus 8 and something like a Sicura Instalite is at least superficial, and in my opinion really completely meaningless to a real critical appraisal of the watch.

JIMVHO, of course.  Naturally like keen horologists everywhere I am absolute in my conviction that my opinion has the force of absolute truth

Jack

I see the Opus 8 as a failure of HWRT's exec staff, to demonstrate an understanding of their creations and history.

Having a GOOD COMPLEX movt is a part and sometimes only a small part, of the product.

YES. To watch conneussers like us...a movt is a BIG thing..part part of broader vision is the entire product's message.

Which is why...a Cartier or a Panerai with a basic movt suceeds. A NUBEO suceeds. MBF suceeds.

The message in Opus 8 is (to me), a movt housed in a case that does not measure up to Haute horology..it is no doubt an attempt to do a throw back to the 60s...I again say..a throwback to the 60s..I can choose a Mercedes as an example, or I can choose a Toyota Corolla....if I had to choose a Toyota..I would have chosen the 2000 sports Toyota ( seen and driven by Connery in You Only Live Twice).

. . . the Opus series is a bit misleading.

Both you and Dr. MTF (man, you physicians are a hard bunch to please ) have said that you feel that Opus 8 (MTF, forgive me if my paraphrase inaccurately captures your perspectives) is a lapse from the aesthetic and presentation standards of previous models in the Opus line and is a departure from the haute de gamme values which the Opus line is supposed to represent.

Now, with respect to your most recent post, Dr. Cheong, what seems to really rub you the wrong way about Opus 8 is not that it's technically undistinguished (we all seem to be in agreement that in terms of a clever implementation of a time display, purely from a technical perspective, it's quite remarkable- and BTW to pull it off in so short a period of time is nothing short of incredible, JIMVHO) but simply that it looks too much like what you have come to reflexively view as a cheap watch.

This case shape and type of time display is firmly embedded in your mind as a low end, low rent, low aspiration formal language which is unsuitable for the Opus line.

I see it a bit differently.  The use of this case shape and the reframing of this type of display as an haute de gamme timepiece with a highly sophisticated mechanism for implementing it strikes me as an extremely clever move aesthetically and is precisely the sort of formal appropriation that has been the stock in trade of high art for decades- frankly, IMVHO it's long overdue in watchmaking, and in haute de gamme watchmaking especially, which at its worst produces heavy handed, humorless pieces with very little wit.  And incidentally, it's worth remembering that at their very inception, the types of watches that Opus 8 is quoting in its design weren't cheap products designed for the democratic masses- quartz LCD/LED watches were the very last word in cutting edge horological cool and they weren't in many cases, and especially initially, inexpensive either.

I mean, it's no more logical, if you really look at the history of LED/LCD watches, to dismiss them en masse as "cheap" and therefore Opus 8 as cheap looking, than it would be to dismiss, say, Opus 7 for being "cheap" just because Ingersoll made round pin-pallet watches.

Cheers,

J.

to me it is a gorgeous car i am very much into aesthetics and the watch has to attract me first in the looks department before I am even remotely interested in finding out about its mechanics and its philosophy and all the other frilly stuff. if it ain't good looking i don't want to know more about it, i mean why bother yuh as I aint gonna sleep with it, uhm i mean consider to buy it...

so for me the opus 8's failure is its looks fail. it reminds me a fossil or dkny or guess watch or something like that. the toyota u see in the pics below looks pretty damn good though and brings to mind that other classic bond car so please dont compare it to the opus 8 kidding...

of all the opus/mbf/ahci stuff, the ones i like the most are still vh antiqua, urwerk, and opus 5. just mho. cheers

You undertstand whetre I come from.

The Toyota...that is THE car for a GOOD example ..Yes?

 

toyota is a good example yes... and it goes back to things that should look the way they should look.

i m interested to see the nubeo in the metal... the pics i have seen in your other post on its case so far are most interesting.

cheers
raph

Like it or not the design of the Opus 3 was inspired eventhough to this point the watch is undelivered.  I wonder if the customers who have a down payment on the Opus 3 will take an Opus 8 instead?

I like the mechanical engineering behind the Opus 8.  Could it be that while trying to perfect the mechanics of the Opus 3 that this was one of the possible solutions? Either way I would like to see if the mechanism works and is reliable enough for everyday wear.   I'll grant that HW achieved the technical half of the formula with the Opus 8.

Everyone will have their own opinion on this but designwise I feel that the Opus 8 a complete swing and miss.   Finding inspiration from the past is one thing but what design twist does the "Opus" 8 have that sets it apart?  Isn't the Opus series supposed to combine the best of innovation with high art?  Perhaps I just don't have a pulse on current pop culture/art    but the Opus 8 looks like a Fossil watch that I own.

First and foremost Harry Winston, as a brand, sells beauty and elegance.  Opus 2 and Opus 4 I think hit the right note.  Technically complicated (not cutting edge) and balanced by the beautiful craftsmanship.

 

 

 

In the end if I had to choose an Opus...I'd still choose an Opus 3

Cheers, Mike

I like the OPUS 8. Not sure about all that other stuff, process, connectedness with the consumer, etc., but purely from looks and technical innovation (mostly the latter), I think this is easily in the top three or four that we've seen from Basel/SIHH this year. I didn't follow HWRT from the beginning, so I'm not really sure about that other stuff, but I think you guys are being a bit harsh on the final product. The look is a really cool throwback to the past, and the movement seems very interesting to say the least. From looks alone, this seems in line with the rest of the OPUS series. The previous seven to me have been a hit or miss in design. Some really cool, others not so much. But whatever the case, they've been different, and this is no exception. Anyways, here's one vote for the OPUS 8. If it'd been one-tenth of the price (and in my realm of possibilites), I'd seriously consider a purchase.

Johnny

if and only if this watch is a failure, there is only one man on earth will make it a success - Mr. Patrizzi.

To me, I will buy if HW give me 90% discount on the list price.

Regards

Ling

 

Ling,

Have you valued this Opus 8 at $35k? 

Is that how much it looks like it's worth to you?

This is important because it values the design and novelty movement at 10% of the asking price.

All the dealers who have to take on inventory are interested in target customer feedback; and you spend 50% of your considerable disposable income on watches.  So your feedback is very important for your region. 

 

Regards, MTF

This watch is just like a newly born baby. It still has long way to go. You will never know whether it will one day become a doctor or  lawyer or engineer or securities dealer or CEO of a PLC or PuristS'forum moderator or fisherman or farmer or conman or convict or otherwise.

My point is, it is unfair to HW to just dismiss this watch now.

To me, this watch has fulfilled the criteria as a family memebr of Opus that is, uniqueness, innovation and very expensive.  However, I verily believe it is over priced, IMHO.  What effort has been put in to produce that watch is important to me but who is the human being that "touch" it is not the main considering factor to me.  Some collectors have been very passionate to Opus series.  It is understood.  Opus series should be very expensive.  It is fine to be expensive but i want to know why it deserves that price.

I must qualify that I am not a big fan of HW and Opus, so for this Opus 8, 35K is the price that I will pay now unless HW can convince me otherwise and provide more information about this watch in order to change my mind.

Again, this is not a lousy watch even though it may appear so in some bionic eyes.

Who knows, this little duckling may turn into a swan in future and deserves more praises than criticsim.

Regards

Ling

 

we need to know why it's priced so high like Opus 5 or more.

Regards,

MTF

my apologies if i' dumbing this down but it seems op8 could be the watch world's campbell soup ala warhol.

If Warhol had done his work TODAY..I won't buy one..not because he won't be the forst..but because between 1965 and 2001...several men would have thrown up work that would have created a rift similar to his..and in watch making...they HAVE ALREADY DONE IT....Fossil, Halter, Diesel, Urwerk, Swatch...you have got the idea and the point correct 100%.

Opus 8 is NOT new.

here is no "rehash" or Warholian design....it is lazy work.

. . . another mechanical watch that uses this type of mechanical implementation of the time display and which quotes formally vintage LCD/LED cases.

Your argument simply doesn't cohere- there have been literally dozens of artists since Warhol whose strategy has been formal appropriation of pop culture, he wasn't the first in any case, he was certainly not the last word, and this tendency you've exhibited in this thread to make factually incorrect and logically fallacious arguments is merely obscuring your legitimate right to simply dislike the watch on the grounds of personal taste. 

Why you insist on these absolutist statements "it is lazy work. . . Opus 8 is not new" which seem intended merely to elevate your own personal judgements to the status of dogma, completely perplexes me.  I don't say that to be personal or to injure your feelings, and I have great respect for your personal taste which I've always found interestingly idiosyncratic, but it's your personal taste.

Jack

But at Watchismo's galleries...many inspiring works can be found.

Watch designers should be like us humans...we take both good and bad comments with some salt...it's only a watch. I hope they can be a sport. I admire your defence of this product. If there is some sensitive issue here...my apologies....let see what HWRT has to say for themselves.

It's not like telling someone that her child has lymphoma.

I will stop criticising the Opus 8 ...for a while.

There are too many good watches to share about....all this bad and good "talk" is just about there.

I wonder how many readers here know that by clicking on our names..they can see the number of hits on our posts..and that the NUBEO post has already overtaken the Harry Winston Opus 8 post in 7 hours.