Harry Winston

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Is this the MBF forum? 

Also - I like Max as much as the next guy...I've had the pleasure of meeting him a few times and I believe that he is a true horological visionary - filled with enthusiasm and ideas.  In no way should my comments detract from Max and his company. 

Personally, Bernard, I think its very wrong of you, as an impartial moderator to stand on your soap box and preach the praises of MBF while putting down HW.  Most who will even read this, know that Max was a driving force behind the opus and Z series watches.  Its one reason why I own HW watches. 

Just because you, personally have announced that you will receive a MBF watch, doesnt mean and/or give you the authority to start making personal, and somewhat derogatory statements about the HW watch brand without fact to support your claims. 

Opus 7 left who cold?  You? So what?  That's your personal view and it shouldnt be stated like its "fact" of the history of the HW brand.

You state that will HW succede in the short term - your statement is "No".  Tell that to my retailer who can't keep the men's watches in stock.  Honestly, as a long time member of this community, and someone who has admired you and your beliefs and "opinions", I think you are way off base here and you are using your "authority" position to further your personal beliefs of the moment. 

This post shouldn't be in the HW forum - it should be in the Independant area - and you should seriously consider if maybe as a moderator and long time purist about making such inflamatory comments without facts.  When I would make personal comments about UN or other brands a few years ago, I would have my head handed to me.  I personally would expect more from a moderator and collector like yourself. 

I have personally seen the MBF watch, and have told Max to his face that it's not my cup of tea.....That I think its unique and a work of art, but not really wearable for me.  He has told me that I will like MBF 2 much better .  More in line with somethign for the "rest of us". 

Enjoy your new watch in the best of health - I am sure you are excited, but please, try to refrain from trashing an entire brand....I'm sure Max would agree as well. 

Best regards,

asg 

it bias or sway "opinion". I may be wrong...in my opinion.

Also, I agree, I could be trashing a brand..though I think that by crticising just one watch, the Opus 7..I hope that that does not trash a whole brand..great Scott!

In fact, if any, all brands..even Patek Lange Journe RM...all make at least one or a few watches that suck.

Let us be free to voice some negative opinions. Fact is..I hardly read any negatives. There must be more stuff that are really bad out there! I refrain. Saying one watch..the Opus 7 is cold..is as far as I go. It is like wine..it did leave me cold...so did Opus 4.
And Opus2.

Even the problems with delivering Opus 3. But..sigh....I don't wanna be nasty.

Or else the WHOLE forum here will be nothing more than a "praise all" and never curse environment...not healthy.

I will be the very first to curse the MBF if the watch sucks...I am sure Max knows me well enough! Many people will not like the MBF1. It may leave them totally cold.

Good to balance our views, and also tell us if any watch is not what we liked to see...with no malice.

Cool BTW..that you have criticised me. I respect that.

Thanks!! I mean it.

With no malice here.

Bernard This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2007-07-25 15:44:17

Dear asg,

Again, I thank you for the critical points you have made. Immediately, just an hour back, I took a jog thru the cemetery a couple of miles from my place. It was 630am...cool, quiet.

The beauty of these cemeteries, and I really love these places, lie for me in their unique ability to make me sit back, think, reflect..and when I leave...I know that I will always be back....eventually.

Most of all, having dealt with death for over the last 25 years ( this august ), as a large part of my work in medicine, I have a weighted view of "things" and values.

Your post made me think. It was one of the BEST posts I have recieved as a reply. I am not a masochist. I like honesty, like yours.

I have to defend a few points.

(1)"Personally, Bernard, I think its very wrong of you, as an impartial moderator to stand on your soap box and preach the praises of MBF while putting down HW. "
 
This soap box is only mine for the timebeing, it can be, and will be taken, eventually by someone else. I try my best, most times, to honor it. It was given to me by Dr Thomas Mao, HWRT, Max Busser and several people who I have not met.

You are correct, I have "preached" MBF1 and Max's good work. I must be more careful here, thanks. I was, still am, very honest about my opinion. It was what has allowed me to rise in my career, both in the military, and in the corporate world, to where I am today. It had also resulted in my "fall" out of the corporate world, into forming my own company years back.

I did not however "put down" HWRT. In fact, in the whole post, I highlighted the history of their achievements. Only TWO points, the opus 7, did I give an a minus and feedback to the short term direction...negative.




(2)Just because you, personally have announced that you will receive a MBF watch, doesnt mean and/or give you the authority to start making personal, and somewhat derogatory statements about the HW watch brand without fact to support your claims. 


I do not announce my acqusitions of watches. Unless...no one else steps up to do so. Or the entire forum will be filled with my posts...horrors. For MBF1, Opus5, and selected pieces that I bought, I hope that I have decided wisely, to announce..chuckles..my purchase. Why?

Some may feel it is to show off my wealth. I can't defend that one. It could actually be true. Anyway, I think all who know me, or have met me, will not think that one. Have you seen the car I drive..sheese...it sucks. Or my office..it is in a hard neighborhood.

I do write, post, announce, a few selected watches that I bought..because I wanted to share my expereince with it. The good parts, as well as bad. Err..mostly good. I bought a few watches that are really not so good...and I refrained from writting about them. Now, I am actually thinking that I should.



(3)Opus 7 left who cold?  You? So what?  That's your personal view and it shouldnt be stated like its "fact" of the history of the HW brand.

Opus 7 leaving me, or any buyer who had the means to buy it, cold or hot....is very important. I want to meet, share, discuss with all Opus buyers. The ones who contemplated buying it, like me, why they did or did not buy it.

The Opus 7, being such an important product, leaves any one + or - feelings, I would encourage them to speak up. It helps the whole industry.

The Opus 7 leaving me cold IS a fact. It can't be otherwise. It was my opinion. If my own opinions, written by me, were not fact...hmmm...it would be strange.

However, whether it leaves others cold...that I do not know.

In no way does Opus 7 leave any "history of the brand". It leaves a footprint.
 
BTW, I have to reveal that I do have a certain acess to data, and data is not always fact, but for hat it is worth at the point in time, data has a certain value. From data available, I do make statements meant to inform the community, the best I can,
without hurting the company or people. This is one of many responsibilities of a moderator.




(4)You state that will HW succede in the short term - your statement is "No".  Tell that to my retailer who can't keep the men's watches in stock.  Honestly, as a long time member of this community, and someone who has admired you and your beliefs and "opinions", I think you are way off base here and you are using your "authority" position to further your personal beliefs of the moment. 

This point, I have to stand firm. I seriously believe that the short term direction that the new owners of HWRT is NOT AT ALL in the direction of Haute Horology. Short term. Long term..I don't know.

As to keeping watches in stock..and good sales...to me, different issue. Market movements, complex beyond the scope of my reply.

I do however feel happy that you have admired my posts, so I am obligated to help you understand the market dynamics and how I process data from the company end. We can continue, but maybe later.

I don't wish to have an authority position. I wish to have a position of expressing opinions. MOST of all...you MUST trust me that I mean it when I say again, that your chastising me is APPRECIATED by me. This is what makes a forum LIVE. Others may not look upon it the same way..but I like to recive BOTH negative and positive replies to what I write. I learn. I like honesty. Thanks.

I have strong personal beliefs. I wish to further them. BUT not for selfish reasons. I want people to see a little more into an industry that is right now, on the verge of elevating itself FROM mere luxury goods TO a higher platfrom....let us try to do that.

The short term goal of the new team of HWRT..is making it's luxury platform stronger, and making its prevous strong art platform weaker. I like Hamdi, he is "for" the art platfrom. But he is unable to exercise his vision at the moment.




(5)This post shouldn't be in the HW forum - it should be in the Independant area - and you should seriously consider if maybe as a moderator and long time purist about making such inflamatory comments without facts.  When I would make personal comments about UN or other brands a few years ago, I would have my head handed to me.  I personally would expect more from a moderator and collector like yourself. 

Well..after you have read my replies above. 1 to 4. This post does belong.

I want to honor Max's many years here. He shaped the company. He created it.

If it inflames..well..sad.

Personal. Yes. My full identity is always revealed in all my posts. So I have to live with what I write, I have to meet people from HWRT and from other companies. I have to answer to ALL of what I write.

I do get my head handed to me. Face to face. It has happened in the past.

I have learned. Got better as a result.

No regrets.

I live life to the fullest. With my own standards of intregrity.

Thanks again!

Cheers from sunny Singapore.

Dear asg,

Thank you (and Bernard) for both coming out with your opinions.
That is the raison d’être of the PuristS; that we can and do state our opinions, politely and without malice nor trolling.

I lurk a lot and almost never post at this HWFT forum. Does this mean that I don't care? Obviously not, as this thread has stirred a response  

Some HW watches produced during Max Busser's pilotage are actually practical and not just a palette on which to place gemstones! The current Mrs MTF and I wear them. The Opus 1 encouraged us to look up the less famous (then) watchmaker involved. It started our quest to collect FP Journe watches; so HW and Max Busser (in a way), as well as ThePuristS all contributed to our Montres FP Journe passion.

We thought the Opus 3 was 'fantastique' but impractical to produce...and that has come to pass.
Opus 2 was 'mostly harmless' but pre-empted the tourbillon craze.
Opus 4 and 5 had something to contribute to HWFT and the watchmakers' reputations.

Opus 6 was pointless (my opinion) but still qualified as an Opus....a life's work .....in fact: two lives worth!

Opus 7 was so harmless that I had to look it up in our archives....to remind myself what's it all about Alfie?
What a useless novelty! Cold? Cold? I must have blanked it out in my mind, as a self-preservation reflex  
OMG - I ventured another opinion......note to self: "Must stop doing that - got to remain bland". Do you want some bread rolls with that?

So, will HWFT recover from the abyss that it has dug itself? Possibly: as it has the cashflow to ride out and attract talent eventually. Will it want to do so if it can sell any number of watches to customers on 5th Avenue NY or Ginza Tokyo? It depends on who is running the show at HWFT and whether they will be allowed to take risks like Max did on Opus 1 - 6:
4.5 out of 6 ain't bad.

Regards,
MTF


This message has been edited by MTF on 2007-07-26 13:29:00

I wish I had more time to post...but....I remember a thread a while back which basically turned hte tide of thepurists..com....lots of old timers left....my favorite posts to read were those of Evetzee - hope you are well Frank!  YOu are missed! 

There is a proper way to say that watches suck.  The way the Bernard made his points, was, IMO, wrong and derogatory.  Calling the thread the Histpry of HW and Legacy of Max is wrong.  Again, coming from the moderator, who, lurkers who dont visit here regularly would possibly view the post as the MODERATOR BASHING THE BRAND - are not appropriate.

The thread wast called - Opus 7 - you suck - you have this wacked out lever which reminds me of a whacked out graham crono to tell the time...you sily designers....post.  This was a post which was titled and authored as something which would be construed as fact. 

Again, I might be stoned out of my mind and off base here, but interpretation and tone is 9/10ths of the law around these parts. 

Look guys - I dislike most offerings of many of the brands on these fora.  I like what EYE like.  Part of the reason I dont voice my opinion any longer - and other folks here who I personaly have enjoyed getting to know and meet, have all left this site because of the BS then went on some time ago.  Isn't this the kinder, friedlier purists.com Take a look at my post a few years back about UN when I referenced that someone was smoking something becasue the designs of a new, certain GMT perpetual in a square case was a horific evolution of a watch which I still cosider to be highly horologically important.  UN jumped the shark IMO...asg pointed this out as his opinion... and then little asg got bashed and berated by many...with personal hate mail and phonecalls etc.   

I really mean no disrespect either, and those who know me get it, I'm just not going to let someone, anyone, even the great bernard and Mr. MTF who's voices transcend out to many many potential purchasers of watches.........get away with crap.  

There is a way to appropriately provide comments and critisicism - They way you have done it, and the way I have done it are incorrect.  If done properly, threads like this dont happen.  

Guys - gotta run - Again, no disrespect...just need to protect the investments if you catch my drift.....

asg 

in future when you send your MBF 1 and OPUS V for servicing, who do you send to?
Max is not a watchmaker and Opus V is not exactly created by Harry Winston Watchmakers.
Just a sincere question out of curiosity.
I'm a big fan of Opus V but I can't say the same with the MBF 1.
I look forward to see the MBF 2
I do understand what you mean about Harry Winston as in the 'Brand' but don't you think that
MBF is also a 'Brand', kinda like Richard Mille. Richard Mille works with Papi to create his vision while Max
collaborate with his indepenent 'watchmaker friends'. Do you see a big difference between both party?
I respect your point of view and , honestly, I do kinda understand where you are coming from.
Just a bit strange coming from the mouth of HW moderator and it just happen coincidentally you are the owner of MBF 1.
Knowing you as a man with great integrity, I'm certain you are writing what you feel without any other agenda
Lovesss*CL

Greetings CL.

I can defintely say that servicing will be costly. For both.
When I bought these items, I had already factored them in, just like any piece of unique work.

Having experienced servicing both AHCI and Patek/Lange watches over the last 20 years, they are both costly. No way at the moment to compare on the same scale though.

Maybe, the worry is whether these watches can /cannot be fixed. My personal answer is "yes". Both watches are far less complex than many really old watches/clocks I have seen, in terms of parts/materials/etc...probably less costly to restore than a some really old porcelain, oil paintings, cars, aeroplanes, so on. With available machines and programmable cutters etc..some really small parts can be fabricated if needed. So far, on both the Opus and MBF, the parts are not made of any difficult to manufacture materials.

Costly in the future, but definetely sustainable.

I think you will like it.

I must honor the faith you trusted me with.

Hope it answers some questions.

deeply appreciated
Me as one of those who have met you, truly believe in you.
Seeing Adam a few times in NYC, I know he is a fantastic guy too
Lovesss*CL

what will be the reaction from the community at large?  I am sure Bernard speaks his heart. Still, for someone 'new' to HW, the message will certainly be confusing.