Patek Philippe

It is as I expected... grey dealers told you about the rarity of the watch (or you "feel" that from them).

Personally, I would love to hear "information" from grey dealers as they may have interesting insight on some issues. However, I won't trust them easily, especially during the casual chat.  It is the same for ADs and grey dealers. In the end, they are just sales who want to sell their goods. I heard many many things like "PP stop making 3712 because there is a major problem in the watch" (I owned the watch for a long time and didn't encounter a single issue once).... or "PP will make a 5070P in 2006"... or "This watch is extremely rare, only XX pieces are made in a year"... etc... I heard these not just from grey dealers but also ADs.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say that they are all liars. Sometimes, they just "relay" the "facts" that they heard from somewhere without questioning the reliability of the source.

SteveH, it looks like that you are really interested in the topics that we discussed in this thread. If you really want to know how "rare" the GP Tourbillon is, I would highly recommend you to look for a reliable / authoritative answer instead of "hearsay" from the grey dealers.

I don't doubt the fact that you stated:  "I'm quite familiar with most of the gray dealers and have seen less than 5 for sale in the last 2 years."... but did you try to find out why it is the case?

Think about this... if you were a grey dealer, which one would you like to carry? 5970 or a GP Tourbillon? Which one you would need to have "extra-effort" to sell? Do you think you would market the GP Tourbillon "as rare as possible" in order to sell it? Take a few minutes to think about these questions.  I guess you should know the answer why it is so "rare" in the grey market.

In the end, I think we buy the watch... not the "rarity".... (well... "rarity" is one of the factor we need to consider in our decision... but it is not the sole factor).

Again, don't get me wrong. I am a big fan of GP too. Their Tourbillon is fantastic! However, I think I am not ready to spend that amount for a GP Tourbillon yet. I hope that I can win a lottery soon.... after that, I am sure I will be one of the happy owner of the GP Tourbillon.... Sigh...day dreaming...

Usually, you will see A LOT of advertisments from grey dealers claming that they have the hot watch for sale and it is available IMMEDIATELY!

Very often, the fact is that they don't have the watch. It is especially true for the internet. For me, I can easily post a few photos of some very rare models (Sky Moon Tourbillon, GP Tourbillion, etc..) and claming that I have the watch for sale.

They will try to locate one when there is any person who is willing to pay top money for the watch. Sometimes they can find one; sometimes they don't. If you are familiar with how the grey market works, you should know that it is HUGE network of Grey Dealers, ADs, and private "collectors" who "collect" a lot of hard-to-find, rare, hot models.

I believe that I can source you a dozen of GP tourbillon in a week if you are willing to pay the list price;
I also believe that some "capable" people can source the Sky Moon Tourbillon within weeks if you are willing to pay double the list price.

In the end, nothing is "rare". It all comes to the price that you are willing to pay.

SteveH, I believe that you had seen that many 5970s but I guess you also know that PP used to release watches in batches? A batches of 5970 consisting of 20 examples is not a suprise to me.

As usually, just my 2-cents.

on this point. I never think 5970G is a rare watch but one I highly regard as a beautiful modern Patek
I think it is a important modern Patek Chrono Perpetual that seems to have everything right, in term of design and size.
That's why it is so popular and in demand.
But I'm not sure if anyone here is suggesting that 5970G is a rare watch.
It's like 3940P...it is so not rare but is it important in the Patek history?
I think it will be very important as the years go.
LovelyLovely*CL

in this case if what you said were true then there would be NO 'rare' watch in the world.
Watches that 'most of us' deem to be rare do come up in auction once in a while ie. 2526, 2499, 1518, 3448, 3450 in various metals.
Rare is not 'impossible' to get, rare is 'difficult' to get at 'reasonable' price.
Who can say a Van Gogh is not rare but is it 'difficult' to get?? No, if you have 'unlimited' source to slash out.
Good example here is 5960P that went for $100K this week. That shows you if you have the means almost nothing is rare to you.

I guess I'm being misunderstood by everyone, except Steve.

Thanks for kind words, CL.

The 5970 rarity is, as Steve said, artificially created. Will the watch go up in value? Yes.

Is it rare?????

No, it is not rare.

I can buy one today, tomorrow, everyday this week, a new one. Yes, at a premium, but the premium does not prove rarity. It only proves that the lie of rarity is a successful lie, inflating the market.

I understand that we all have a certain interest in keeping pateks highly valuable, but why do we have to join in and promulgate the lie of rarity?

A rare watch is one that you can not find, no matter how much money you have to spend. A rare watch is one you come across once a year or two years, or less...

A 5970 is always available to anyone with money. That's my point.  I will now return to surfing the internet for a rare watch.

You are a brave sole I must say.

I didn't know it will be this POPULAR...hahahhhahaha
Not brave at all....just dumb ;-)
Lovesss*CL

ps. But I'm happy I'm getting the 5980 soon. This one I really like and I can see myself wearing

eagerly await for mine to arrive which my AD told me will definitely be this year.
Fingers crossed.

I have always like your Patek collection
*CL

I only saw one in metal a couple months ago and it hooked on me.

I own the 5970 in RG and WG, and 5070 in both metals.  I believe the 5970s will trade around 180K when they are discontinued in 2008, and the 5070s around 90K when they are discontinued....only all up from there.  I know PP is a mystery house, but seeing as they have produced their own in-house movements (the watches holding which I don't particularly care for), isn't it really a done deal that the older models will discontinue?  Just watch on ebay as pricing for both trades up at least 5K per month in the coming months...not to mention these are absolutely beautiful pieces.

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Great....where is your neighbourhood? I'm looking for a 5970g

Not too hard to find I picked up another today. I have:

5711R, 5711J 5711G, 5125J, 5396R, 5712, 5101J, 5056G, 5146G 5109G Love the watches I sold my 5101P.