Wees
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Just generally commenting on the thread...
I like the concept of "in house" too, but there are very few out there that are truly in house even if we limit our focus to just the movement (and even then, Dufour's Simplicity, Kari's Observatoire and Journe's Resonance are not in house).
I think that we can accept some work done by third parties, especially if "made to order and [own] specification" and substantially different from pre-existing movements or if the third party product is among the best available in the particular market.
Calibre 8500 question...
Hello, Is it true that the Omega calibre 8500 is manufactured by ETA? I was under the impression that the movement was manufactured by Omega themselves. Thank you, Mike
Yes.
Saved this quote from an article I saw a few years ago, but forget which one. " In an admirable show of honesty, Mr. Monachon also cautioned us that although the calibre 8500/8501 are completely designed and developed within OMEGA Granges, it is dangerous...
A few more questions...
Thanks for the quick and accurate response to my question. Do you know to what capacity Omega was involved in the designing and developing of the calibre 8500/8501? Did Omega design the movement and then rely on the other Swatch group units to assist in t...
Omega doesn't have the equipment to make movements.
Within Swatch group, they are not tooled to be a parts maker nor movement maker. That's what ETA, Piguet, Novi, and Nivarox do for the conglomerate.
I don't think one can say this definitively
regarding what omega can and cannot do. A lot of speculation at this point.
I am very surprised...
If in fact it is true that Omega lacks the ability to manufacture movement parts within their factory, I am certainly surprised. I was under the impression that Omega was equipped with hightech manufacturing machinery within the factory. To hear that Omeg...
Is it actually 'SWISS MADE', 100%?
Hi mikesprang I think Omega are capable of research and design, production of parts and also, to finish the whole watch in their factory. This is going to be an expensive exercise, though. Swatch makes most of the parts for their watches in third-world co...
Again all speculation
None of us knows details about the 8500s manufacture so it is all speculation at this point. What is not under speculation is it is a pretty and innovative movement with world class accuracy. I would say among the finest mass produced automatic movements ...
Beware of 'hype'
I would think that in this age of global manufacturing it would be extremely rare to find any manufacturer who made everything themselves. Just look at the car industry – parts are made all over the world – that’s what these huge container ships are carry...
I feel there's a meaningful distinction to be made . . .
. . . regarding the origin of Omega's movements. It is correct to say they are manufactured by ETA in Grenchen, but they are not ETA movements. They are designed, developed, and tested by Omega, and share nothing with any other movement or manufacturer. T...
But do we know that for a fact Art?
Does ETA make omega's movements or do they make some movement parts to be completed by omega personnel? Do they make Breguet, Blancpain and GO movements as well since they are all under the swatch group? Or are they assembled by ETA watchmakers wearing Br...
This is precisely what I was told by an . . .
. . . Omega employee (in charge of training watchmakers, if memory serves correctly) at a gathering in Dresden during the ceremonies for the opening of the Glashütte Museum in May 2008. He literally mentioned Grenchen, so my impression is that the movemen...
Thanks for the insight Dr. No...
Dr. No, When you spoke with the Omega employee, did he confirm that Omega completely designed the calibre 8500 movement and then the actually manufacturing is carried out by ETA? How about the finishing of the movement? Is that done by ETA as well or does...
The impression . . .
. . . received was that the new generation of movements are made and presumably finished at ETA's facilities in Grenchen. I suppose it's possible they're finished in Bienne, but don't recall any words to that effect. As to the extent they were developed b...
Just generally commenting on the thread...
I like the concept of "in house" too, but there are very few out there that are truly in house even if we limit our focus to just the movement (and even then, Dufour's Simplicity, Kari's Observatoire and Journe's Resonance are not in house). I think that ...
This may be...
This may be a stupid question, but what are GUB movements Dr No? I am not familiar with this acronym and would appreciate a quick explanation inorder to understand. I suppose that the only hang-up that I am having with the calibre 8500 is not the movement...
I believe GUB stands for . . .
. . . G lashütter U hren b etrieb (Glashütte watch factory), and commonly seen engraved on G O movements . . . . . . like the caliber 22 in my Karree Panodate....
Thank you Dr No...
I love the swan-neck regulator on your calibre 22. I found a great video on youtube that shows the GO factory and all of the steps they carry out to produce these beautiful movements. It is amazing to see what they can do. Thanks for the info and sharing ...
I love it! ...
Would you happen to have more images of your beautiful vintage Glashutte to share? Maybe a movement image as well please. Wear in the best of health and enjoy to the fullest! Regards, Mike
Thanks Mike! Here are a few...
The bottom two were seller's pictures, and I have had the watch cleaned and serviced since. This message has been edited by mrsnak on 2012-04-26 18:06:58 This message has been edited by mrsnak on 2012-04-26 18:09:08...
Mike, I'm not sure if what I am going to say will help you or...
...give you more details to be confused about. But let's give it a shot. I purchased my first 8500 powered Omega watch knowing full well that it is not 100% "in-house" in the strictest sense of the word. I just didn't care. Because I didn't buy the watch ...
Thank you Ruckdee...
The Omega that I am most interested in is the Seamaster Planet Ocean Ti Liquidmetal (blue dial/bezel). This piece has many very good qualities that make me attacted to it, but I want to make sure that it will be a watch that I want to keep for a lifetime....
Thank you for your kind words, Mike.
I don't know if I can be of any further help to you. But if you have minor questions you feel do not warrant a new thread, please feel free to PM me. Also be warned that I am biased in favor of Omega (obviously) so proceed with caution! I may just push yo...
Don't think there is a problem with exclusivity
That watch you are considering is a unique combination of case material, world class movement and modern design that stands up well at that price point with any watch from any other maker.
Stigma?
What kind of stigma - excellent timekeeping capabilities for a relative value? Ease of service and availability of parts? A proliferation so vast because of their reliability and cost that the company was a near monopoly yet still kept the prices fair? Th...
Interesting ralph_george...
It could be said that people purchasing a watch which costs several thousands of dollars, euros, etc could be considered a snob which includes all of us (maybe being so blunt does not help out). You use the term proliferation which implies that ETA moveme...
Your first paragraph sums things up very well. I'm not saying that...
...I value responses from others less of course. This has been a very interesting thread and I have been waiting for the moment to jump in with what little I know. Thank you to all for this meaningful discussion. Ruckdee
IMHO
The cal. 8500, 9300 and other derivative calibers are among the finest mass produced watch movements available today. By mass produced I am excluding only the independents like Dufour and the like. ETA in whatever way omega used them is a huge advantage r...
I struggle to understand the "in house"
Obsession people seem to have about movements. The real questions are: is it a well design, robust, accurate and well finished? If it is a good movement does it matter who made it? The 8500 is a great movement and, to me, it is neither here nor there if i...
My issue with ETA
The issue that I would have in buying a watch with an ETA movement is not that they are no good. On the contrary, I think ETA movements are great value and can be highly accurate but I know that several 'cheap' watches have them installed. As an example, ...
One analogy
If you had the money, would you buy a porsche built by volkswagen if the entire vehicle was designed, styled and closely supervised by porsche? And if the answer is no, is it because VW also builds much cheaper cars?
Well, I wouldn't buy a Porsche.........
because I don't like them - however, as I said before, I wouldn't buy a Rolls Royce with a Renault engine and gearbox - even if the design was by RR. I suppose we're all different and as such are attracted to different things - thank goodness. My opinions...
I haven't figured out the obsession...
...with "in-house" movements, either. It is true that Rolex builds all their own movements, while Omega uses some movements designed by ETA and other sister companies. Some other watch companies that offer only in-house movements are Patek Philippe, Jaege...
If it can be summed up with one word...
gatorcpa, If it is possible to sum it up in one word (which it may not be possible) the word would be "exclusivity" or lack thereof. For me, this is the key problem that I have with ETA production. Regards, Mike
I agree with you again aroma...
Your last two paragraphs inparticular make a lot of sense and could be very likely in the future. Very good points you have made! Regards, Mike
I was told by an Omega rep in the UK...
...that Rolex is/will be trying to get the rights to use the co-axial movement for themselves. I wish I could provide more information, but something to do with the patents, possibly.
That is interesting news...
If you can find any more information about Rolex using a co-axial movement, please let us know. There is no patent on the co-axial design anymore and it appears to be a very promising escapement, so it would make sense that Rolex would jump in as well. Re...
Didn't Rolex and Patek decline to use the co-axial escapement?
I believe that omega was the one company that decided to go the co-axial route. I currently own cal. 8500 and cal. 9300 watches and they are both superb timekeepers. I am also a huge vintage omega enthusiast and consider these modern movements on the same...
But it could also backfire for Rolex...
...given that so much of their customer loyalty has to do with them having their own tried-and-true movement. They would have to reinvent themselves on this.
You are right, it could backfire...
But, it could also be very prosperous as well. It appears that the co-axial design for the calibre 8500 and 9300 has certainly been great for Omega. Rolex has an immense R & D facility to design and test these things, so I would not be surprised if th...
Good question MSNWatch...
In my humble opinion, I would not buy the Porsche if it were produced by VW because I do not care much for VW. I personally do not think that VW should be producing Porsche cars due to the fact that VW is not at the level of Porsche. Therefore, it would n...
In my opinion, you've fallen hard...
...for the marketing hype of "exclusivity". In today's modern world, there are very few factory-made products whose makers design, manufacture and assemble every part and component of the finished goods. When it comes to watches, there are hundreds of com...
I think the problem is with the word 'exclusive'
Again, just my opinion - but if a company implies that its product is exclusive then that's just what it should be. It shouldn't contain parts that are used by other manufacturers. ETA movements are very good but a watch with an ETA movement can never be ...
It depends on how you approach
these things. I have a Steinhart big pilot and have a zero Panerai. They both have essentially the same movement, however, you cannot compare the two watches. The finish and quality of materials used in the Panerai is noticeably better than the Steinhart....
The Lotus/Toyota analogy doesn't work..........
I like Lotus cars but with the greatest of respect, they cannot be regarded as ‘prestigious’ – they are rough and ready fun cars. A better analogy would be Ferrari/Toyota – would you be happy to purchase a Ferrari and pay Ferrari prices knowing that the e...
A fine movement and timepiece in general...
IMHO a fine timepiece and it's movement should be "special", meaning that it is not going to be shared amongst other watch brands. The example of Rolex is a very good one because you do not see Rolex outsourcing their movements to any other brand watch so...
As I previously said
I think it depends on how you approach these things. I happen to think Lotus is a "prestigious" brand as much as Rolex is. Rolex is mass manufacturer of watches that, at the entry level, are affordable to a significant number of people. In my view, Rolex ...
Has ETA ever outsourced to PP, VC, or AP?
As far as I know, ETA as we know it today, has never outsourced to any of the very high-end brands such as Patek, Vacheron or Audemars. Lemania and F. Piguet have, but not ETA as far as I know. Does this tell us something?
It tells me
that these companies would love to charge $20k up for their watches to people who crave exclusivity.
ETA encompasses several historic manufacturers
so I referred to the individual manufacturer. I gave the example of Lemania ( a company owned by swatch) which, I think, has recently become part of Breguet. I also referred to valjoux which historically supplied chronograph movements to high end manufact...
Correction Re Valjioux
Valjioux never supplied chronograph movements to Rolex, though it did to Tudor. When the Rolex Daytona was first introduced, it used the Zenith El Primero Chronograph movement, which Rolex subsequently replaced with its own in-house design. Valjioux never...
Valjoux ( correction of the correction )
Rolex Daytona, let's call first generation, ref 6238, 6239, 6241 and 6262, were "powered" by a manual wind Valjoux cal 72 (renamed by Rolex as 722). On later models, ref 6263, 6264 and 6265, the humble Valjoux 72 continued there with some improvements (Ro...
Quite sure
Rolex stopped using the valjoux movement in about 1988 when the Daytona was redesign and they introduced the El Primero.
Please correct me if I am wrong...
But, to my understanding Valjoux and ETA were not a part of the same company when Rolex was using the Valjoux for their Daytona. Is this correct or am I mistaking?
Thanks for confirming this db Darien...
When Rolex chose to use the Valjoux 72 in their Daytona, they did so because Valjoux 72 had a very refined column wheel chronograph design. IMHO it was superior in refinement, design, and beauty to say the ETA 7750. Rolex could have chose to use the ETA 7...
Valjoux
was part of the Ebauches SA group (since 1944) which with further consolidation became later known as ETA.
The last of the consolidation
into what we now call the swatch group was in 1983 and at about the same time Ebauches SA (valjoux had been a part of Ebauches SA for decades) became know as ETA. The change over from the manual wind Valjoux to the auto El Primero was in 1988, to me the a...
I believe the answer...
The answer of course is that the El Primero is automatic. Rolex wanted an automatic calibre in their Daytona, but they could have opted for an ETA / Valjoux 7750. However, they did not and chose the El Primero. I would like to know why this is the case.
I don't know for a fact
why they chose the El Primero over the 7750. My guess would be that as the 7750 was already in use by Tudor, Rolex did not want to use the same base movement in both the Daytona and the Tudor chrono. In the early 80s there weren't many high quality auto c...
Correction to Your Correction
The El Primero was not the first automatic integrated center column wheel movement every made. The Frederic Piguet 1185 was.
I think the accepted wisdom
is that the El Primero was the first integrated auto chronograph to the market, although Breitling-Hamilton developed a modular auto movement at the same time. This was in 1969. The F. Piguet 1185 was introduced , as I understand it, in the late 80s.
Man, an I being negligent or what!
I'm really get "spanked" in this thread for my bad information....I guess I had better get myself back to WIS School soon and retake "Horology 101". Thanks for the correction of my correction of your correction! Best regard DB
Actually, I believe the correct answer...
...as to which manufacturer was first to the market with an automatic chronograph was...Seiko (sorry, Swiss fans). "So what can we glean from our investigation into the great race of 1969? Some answers are easy: Zenith first introduced the automatic chron...
Interesting to read that Seiko
was the first to market, while Zenith was the first to show to the public. I think Seiko is great brand that is greatly under appreciated. Zenith were in good company. Thanks for the info.
Yes, this all may be true....but it was INVICTA that invented "Flame Fusion Crystal"!!
LOL !!! (An Invicta " Something or Other ")...
Yes, you are ...
Valjoux was acquired by Ebauches S.A. in 1944. Ebauches S. A., after the quartz crisis, was named ETA. Again, the classic Rolex Daytona was originally "Powered by ETA" (Not that I consider this a bad thing). Cheers, Nilo
Interesting you mention ferrari
Would the image of ferrari diminish in your eyes if they use some of their technology (as they do) for fiat cars? After all, the Fiat group owns 90% of ferrari.
Having Read All Posts, and All Things Being Equal...
Here is where I come out: 1) Is my opinion of Caliber 8500/9300 movements affected by the fact that it is based on parts made by ETA and others within the Swatch Group? NO. My opinion of the movements rises and falls entirely on their technical capabiliti...
Congratulations on your new watch Darien...
I think it is a great choice. If you buy a Rolex, for example, you know it's design and manufacturing origin (with the exception of a few very minor parts such as jewels). In the case of Omega, as much as the calibre 8500 is a very nice movement, the orig...
Mike - I bet you never guessed that........
you'd open up such a hornet's nest when you initiated this discussion!! Obviously, you hit a raw nerve!! It's a good job we're all different - I'll not say any more but I think I'm with you on this one. Cheers This message has been edited by aroma on 2012...
Thanks aroma...
I appreciate your understanding of my delema when it comes to this topic. I feel that it has been a very interesting and enjoyable discussion. I did realize, when I began this discussion, that defensive responses would follow. But, that is why I brought i...
And Mike, Consider This...
Mike Consider also that Omega hasn't exactly helped itself its recent track-record in terms of rushing design innovations into the market without first thinking-through the implications. I'm referring to the company's experience with its Caliber 2500 Seri...