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Link to interview:
This message has been edited by India Whiskey Charlie on 2025-02-03 02:57:38
There is a very interesting interview with Francois-Paul at Perpetual Passion
I think this one is worth a read.
Please enjoy đ
I was reading thinking âsounds like he has come to terms with Jaquet Drozâ, not realizing another few paragraphs downs he specifically mentions them! đ
He also makes a point about luxury and industry which actually has come up on this forum today and another forum a few days back. The crux of that discussion is people donât understand what luxury actually is, how much of Swiss watchmaking is less luxury and more industry (not necessarily a bad thing). And how with industry comes perhaps a greater emphasis on production process, costs and redundancies.
The comment also reminds me of a discussion I had with Romain Gauthier and his admiration for Rolex. Their quality of output at enormous scale is no easy feat. Several âhigher endâ competitors cannot match this at 1/10th of the production output.
I think for the big players like Rolex (with large/respectable market shares), there is also something to be said for âeconomies of scale.â
They can make certain movements that are of high durability/quality by spending serious cash $$$ (that close to all others cannot do, cost prohibitive or otherwise) and the fact that they produce over a million watches a year and can sell those pieces, helps them cover that durability/quality cost.
Totally! I respect rolex more now than ever. Sometimes I toy with the idea of what it would look like to sell everything and create an all rolex collection
I do think his idea of luxury though is pretty narrow and his lack of appreciation for simplicity and finishing puts him at the other end of the spectrum from dufour or smith. While I agree finishing isn't watchmaking and I can see his point as an inventor and innovator, I also think dismissing it entirely means he fundamentally misses other facets of luxury. A bespoke suit or shoes, a hand made table, the guy in jiro dreams of sushi making the perfect egg, there's complexity, depth, and challenge in perfecting simplicity and tradition as well. These aren't mutually exclusive, both would be better. Imagine a FPJ CS with real guilloche, an overcoil like the $$$ journes, and hand finished movement and hands, it would be killer.
I also find it a little bit of a contradiction, x number of watches is not luxury but y number of watches is luxury. If his watches are finished to the same quality as Patek and both brands have massive complications options, is FPJ luxury and Patek not simply due to production even if the quality and complexity are equal? It's all relative, I bet FPJ looks real industrial to smaller indies like Rexhep.
This is a great postâŚ
You have drilled down to what is the very soul of aspirational creativity or the nexus of art and craft. There must be purpose but itâs the artful expression of purpose that inhabits that mercurial union. When endeavoring to improve on such a universal age old device you can see the changes (in Rolex for instance) but they are glacial.
Thats not what he said Fastwong
He respects those two you mentioned. The point he makes is that most in the new generation of independents are following that same recipe without contributing with anything other than nice craft. And he is dead right. Itâs uninspired and at brink of being speculative from some of these independents.
I had a very interesting conversation with Rexhep about this a couple of years ago and he was making this very same point exactly.
I had a very interesting conversation with Rexhep about this a couple of years ago and he was making this very same point exactly.
He does say he sees no added value in simple well finished watches. My point is that his dismissal of value there I think narrows his concept of luxury, of "the best".
Is the GF Handmade 1 uninspired because it delivers nothing but hand craft? The RR CC is one of the most extravagantly craft simple 3 handers made today, certainly RR must see value in it? I'm not saying craft is everything, just that it's something, and it has value. RR and GF have embraced both innovation AND craft.
I see your point that these more mature brands have made contributions to engineering and innovation first, maybe earned themselves the right to simplify. I agree there's a bubble of new indies popping up like gophers that haven't proven themselves yet demand top dollar for basic really shiny watches. Perhaps when FPJ was coming up, complication, engineering, innovation, these were what defined value and distinction. Today with modern design and production capabilities, the value equation has changed and skilled craft and handwork has become more rare and costly. That's today, just a starting point, maybe different from FPJ's in the past and not a vector for the future.
And is that such a bad place to start? One of the things Ben Clymer said he appreciated most about his RR CC II was the finishing because it is so extravagant anyone can enjoy it. The finishing is so bold it is easily enjoyed by more people than say something more esoteric like a GF complication or a vintage Patek. Maybe that creates a more approachable entry point and draws more people into the hobby that will grow to appreciate the technical side as well. Similarly, some of the new indies making simple watches today to match customer preferences / demand will hopefully grow and contribute horological innovations to the industry in the future and will combine their foundation in hand work with novel engineering to create great things. Time will tell.
You can have a Noma pushing the bounds of cooking and also a James Beard nominee perfecting the pancake. I think there's room for and value in both. Maybe the pancake diner will go on to create a unique new fine dining concepts, maybe Noma will give us their version of shake shack.
Fastwong: No - he doesnât say that and again youâre so obviously twisting the meaning
His exact words are : â What leaves me perplexed in the new generations is that almost all of them focus on creating three-hand watches, with or without tourbillons, finished with impeccable polishes, but then? What is the added value? It is a technical level of three out of ten. There is no real technical or conceptual progress, you understand? It does not go beyond that.â
How you arrive at this being addressed at RRCC2 or a GF handmade is a clear fallacy!
I know I can assume you do know what youâre talking about, neither Akrivia or GF are âthe new generationâ - they have both been around for a long time. Looking at Akrivia or GF back catalogues these a are technically and stylistically experimental and daring.
I see you have a chip on your shoulder when it comes to FP Journe but be fair! At least. I will not name any names but please Scroll down through the Independent section of WPS and you can find plenty that are match for his criticism.and by the way⌠In fact I heard the same point being made by Rexhep several years ago. Think about that for a second.
He IS asking for more ambitions among the new generation of independents. Not just mindlessly following a recipe that seems to work.
There have never been more money, more buyers, more attention and less sceptisism of the Independents and micro brands than there is right now. This is their golden opportunity. So they should be much more ambitious and show something inspiring.
I honestly canât think of anyone other than Francois Paul who does more for the young generation of watchmakers and independents. By this, I mean his âYoung Talent Awardâ where he will award those who display creativity but not always commercially viable. He gives them money to buy equipment, he gives them free training at Montres Journe and he gives them sparring.
Also; His manufacture produces parts and dials for micro brands and some âtopâ Independents to give them opertunity to source high quality components in VERY small quantities.
I think itâs refreshing with some constructive criticism of the Independents.
I think itâs worth listening to what he is ACTUALLY saying and see if YOU/I can learn a bit
My thoughts exactly; the way someone âfinishesâ a watch can be luxury itself
There can be art type luxury (finishing) and complication type luxury (multiple complications), then having both art and complication luxury in one watch should make that watch way more appealing.
Some simply made drawings (art) can garner high valuations without requiring a complicated drawing technique. An S class car doesnât lap the Nurb as fast as a Porsche but the S class is still luxury based on interior and ride quality.
đ
Rolex is totally unique form the rest of the big manufacturers in the industry. The absolute benchmark for quality. I believe F.P. Sees it that way as well and I suspect that is a big reason why he privately is a Rolex collector among the different categories of watches he collects.
Love this quote
"What leaves me perplexed in the new generations is that almost all of them focus on creating three-hand watches, with or without tourbillons, finished with impeccable polishes, but then? What is the added value? It is a technical level of three out of ten. There is no real technical or conceptual progress, you understand? It does not go beyond that."
Preach king.
This deserve a dedicated discussion
I think that this is the latest years' trend, great finishing and nothing more.
The only watchmaker who's done something really be is Stephen McDonnell with his perpetual and "chrono", while Zenith and Frederique Constant have introduced oscillators.
The only watchmaker who's done something really be is Stephen McDonnell with his perpetual and "chrono", while Zenith and Frederique Constant have introduced oscillators.
Yes, itâs gotten tiresome an uninspired but has been hyped beyond belief
Itâs why we have people counting inward angles and oohing over wide beveling. It EASY to see and appreciate. But it is merely craft and a default way to establish your self as an independent to make some dollars. I do think though, that when you look at some of the work that is seen at Journeâs âYoung talent competitionâ you see that there are guys with Real talent and vision. But those guys are donât get much support by the watch press or by collectors community who âare in to independentsâ. Most of those guys want a 3 hand piece with AMAZING wide beveling and inwards angles.
Not sure why my picture was deleted? Some context - FPJ watches are not finished to precise finishing either, as my picture clearly depicts.
This message has been edited by India Whiskey Charlie on 2025-06-24 01:42:23
Technical or artisanal or both
First thing up front, I'm the biggest fan of Francois-Paul. I admire his philosophy on watches and I have dined with him (sometimes with Masa) in a group setting a handful of times over the past few years. I own his watches which I have posted a few times here. FP is a genius I think most of all would agree. The FFC, Vagabonds and Resonance are sublime.
I don't have any issue with this interview and he is entitled to his opinions. He is a watchmaker who focuses on technical excellence and I respect that.
I do enjoy hand-finishing, a lot. I think it elevates the aesthetics of a watch and I appreciate the many hours put in by artisanal technicians to file the anglage to perfection (that sounds technical to me too). My favorites are the ones in RRCCII, and I could stare at them whole day long. Those steel components in Journe's movements are finished by hands and in my view, it gives their watches another dimension. Though at 1,000 mechanical pieces per year, I'm not sure it is possible to hand-finish them even if FP wants to. 30 per year seemingly are the max for those artisanal watchmakers who choose to hand-finish their watches. I too own hand-finished watches.
I enjoy all these watches whether technical or artisanal.
This is exactly right Ichairan
with a production just below 1000 per annum it is a manufacture and not possible to hand finish watches to the same degree as a Phillipe Dufour or a Rexhep Rexhepi. The comparison simply doesnt make sense. That kind of finish is for the very minor production of say 50 pc per annum.
In the interview I dont see him belittleing those who are making artisinal wathces. He merely states that too many of the young independants is doing the SAME watch. A 3 hand with nice bevels and that this doesnt move the industry forward. Much less is the comment targeted at Rexhep Rexhepi. Remember that they work together and Montres Journe have delivered parts to RR and that they are very good friends. (I think RR is going vertical as well now)..... And remenber Rexhep is doing so much more than 3 handed watches. He is in no way a guy to rest on the laurels and makes very technically ambitious watches. He is exactly a watchmaker with a vision beyond his wonderfully finished product.
From speaking with FP I understand that it was always his ambition to build a fully vertically integrated manufacture. As he explains this process started in 2005 and was very soon achieved. Why?
WHY this number? Because it opens the possibilities to make everything yourself. As he also explains it had to do with quality of components and security of delivery but also freedom to manufacture the way he wanted. (e.g CB dial) This is his vision of INDEPENDENCE as a watchmaker.
And BTW:
I learned a very valuable insight during a conversation I had with Rexhep. I was discussing the finishing of Pateks watches. He explained in detail that he felt the discussion of finish had become mislead. To him, first and foremost, "finish" is about the quality and consistency of components. He also mentioned some of the best components come out the Patek maufacture and of Montres Journe because they have invested heavily on raising the bar in this area. E.g. the polishing of cams and gears which are essential to the quality of the watch in the end. In our concersation he was complaining how especially Patek was belittled over their movement finish in the public opinion. As he said. "thats not what they are about". (beveling) but their quality is some of the best ( movement components) .
On the other hand you have "SOME" other highly regarded manufaturers whos claim to fame is in the finishing but when you study components closer, the quality is mediocre because they rely and depend on outside suppliers. The smaller quantities you buy the more limited your supply becomes. Finding good quality suppliers is not so easy as one might think. Even in Switzerland.
This is an amazing interview.
Freedom of thought and expression coupled with discipline and pursuit of perfection arenât always present in the same person. Yet FPJ achieves this in his own way. His style is unique and special. Different yet familiar. Pure genius. I love his watches (as many of you know). All his watches. Thank you for sharing. I read this article several times and got something different out of it each time.
A real pleasure, Gary.
Itâs not often that I see interviews with him any more but he always makes thoughtful and sometimes provocative comments. I also learned something from it.
Great interview
The brand identity being embedded in product the way he described is the same thing I like tn rant about when we acquire a consumer brand. Heâs 100% correctly that people should be able to tell itâs yours without a logo.
