Comments:
Stainless Steel Grand Seiko 3180
A good friend who knows the people from GrandSeiko management help me ask them about the existence of Grand Seiko SS 3180.
Grand Seiko management told him that many people had asked them this question over the years. They did investigate about this with not only old sales record but also old records of their factories' archive.
So if it is watch that's not for sale but for internal use, it will at least appear in the manufacture record. Knowing how meticulous the Japanese can be, this is something that it's quite unimaginable that they will miss.
So they said their official answer to this question is SS3180 did not exist.
This then become something interesting. How does one 'frankenstein' those SS3180? I would imagine it's not difficult to get the movements but how about those case? Are those case from the 14K coating being stripped down to its core metal? I find it interesting that people will actually go all the way to franken this watch and I must say the result is actually pretty impressive 
I do hope one day I will get to see this piece in metal to examine it
*John
They exist.
I have it on extremely good authority (two sources) that these actually do exist. However, it is alleged that there are fake examples out there, and I'm pretty certain that one sold recently
Here are some photos of mine...
The quality of my one is extraordinary. If it is a fake, then someone went to an insane amount of effort to create it, and for relatively little gain (if you're going to fake it, why make so few?).
I am personally aware of the existence of 6 stainless steel 3180's. The most recent one to have sold on Yahoo Japan was almost certainly fake, or at least, has had the hour markers replaced (so apologies to whoever bought that one).
What is interesting about the other 5, is that they have subtle differences that mirror differences in the regular gold filled 3180 over the course of its existence.
"Regular" gold-filled 3180's can have three different logo types, two different dial types, 2 different hand-set types, and two different lion medallions.
The earliest logos were printed - like my stainless steel example shown above. Then came carved logos, and finally applied logos.
The earliest hands were "mountain" hands, later hands flat (as per the above example).
Early dials were sunburst - like the one above, later ones matt.
So, my example has printed logo, flat hands, and a sunburst dial.
The second example I am aware of has a carved logo, flat hands, and a matt dial.
A third example has a carved logo with mountain hands (i'm not sure of the dial variant).
The fourth example I only know has flat hands.
The fifth example I have not seen good enough photos of, but I believe it is the same as mine.
If you're going to fake it, why make so many variations? Perhaps you're faking these with a gold filled 3180 as a base, but if that's the case, read on.
The most intriguing thing about all the 3180SS however is that it has a unique - to the best of my knowledge, not found on any other Seiko, let alone Grand Seiko - caseback medallion. The medallion is similar to the early-type medallion on the gold-filled examples, but with the text "Chronometer" underneath the lion, rather than "GRAND SEIKO" above it.
If you're going to fake these, why go to the trouble of designing and creating a totally custom caseback medallion that doesn't exist anywhere else?
All the SS variants that I am aware of have either printed or carved dials. For the regular gold-filled 3180, printed dial examples are like hens teeth. You hardly ever see one. Carved dials are also very, very rare (although not so rare as the printed ones). I've seen every single listing for a 3180 that has come up for sale in Japan over the last 15 months. Not that I've actually counted, but my gut feeling is that for every carved dial I see, I see 50 or more applied logos.
There are three ways to fake this watch.
First option - build pretty much everything from scratch except the movement. That would be insanely time consuming and costly to do.
Second option - get a donor gold filled 3180 and somehow remove the gold from the case, hands, hour markers... replace the medallion with something you custom made... etc etc. But if you're going to do that, why use the rarest examples of the gold-filled 3180 as your base watch?
Third option - franken it. Find cases, dials, handsets that work with the 3180 movement. Strip the dial down to nothing. Get that sunburst effect somehow, print what's necessary on it, find the right steel hour markers that match exactly the design of the gold ones on the regular 3180's from somewhere, etc etc. Oh... and custom make a caseback medallion that doesn't exist anywhere else.
The story on these hasn't been fully told yet. Whether we ever get to fully understand what these watches are, I have no idea, but I'm happy to hang onto mine in the hope that one day we'll find out!
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Huge thanks for the info and comments Gerald. I really appreciate to learn many things about watches so rare like yours. Congratulations for it. Wear and enjoy it in good health
Best wishes
Alkiro
Alkiro
What a response!
I bow to your knowledge Gerald! Learned a lot - and as there are so few of these out there, it's fantastic of you to share this - no other sources for us
fantastic info...
& wonderful watch...simple & humble dial.
Best,
mahesh.,
Thanks for sharing Gerald !
Best,
mahesh.,
I'm aware of these...
hence I'm impressed by option 2 and option 3. There's ton of vintage Omega that are nicely franken too, with beautiful dial. Why not Grand Seiko? It's very desirable. Note that I'm not the one who claims these are 'fakes'. It is Seiko themselves. You said you have two sources that claim that these exist, may I know are they from Seiko? What make them authority.
One reason that these exist in so many variants just prove my point. They make it with whatever they can find and all from Seiko material. Seiko material are not hard to find.
Why do you think this is worth only $8-$10k instead of $30-$40k like the platinum version? What I'm saying is...even if this is a franken watch, it is a beautiful one with the real movement. Do I like this watch...a BIG YES
Very desirable...
Here's the thing. If these are so desirable, how come there are so few of them? How come we don't see them up for sale all the time?
The "make it with whatever they can find" doesn't make sense. Carved dial 3180's in good condition are hitting close to $4K these days. Why use one of those as the base, when you can pick up an applied dial one for a quarter of that? As I said before - for every carved dial 3180 you see, you will come across 50 or more applied dials. Sure, prices have risen quite a bit of late, but it has always been the case (apart from in 1961!!) that the applied logo ones massively outnumber the carved and printed dials.
The "so many variants" thing doesn't necessarily prove your point - after all, the gold filled ones exist with multiple variants, and cross-overs too (printed dial with flat hands, for example - which is a bit odd, but there you go).
The platinum ones go for 3x the amount for two reasons. Firstly - and this is the main reason - they have been publicly and officially recognized as being the genuine article. Secondly, well, they're platinum.
The real question should be - 'if' it has been confirmed as you say, that no SS3180 were ever made by Seiko, then why are these selling for 8-10K?
If there ever is an official statement on these, then I don't doubt they will go up in value, but would people pay more for them than the platinum? I somehow doubt it.
As for the sources - one is at Seiko, the second is a dealer in Japan who used to think these were fakes, but has recently come across some information that has convinced him that Seiko did produce SS3180's, but they were never offered for sale to the public. I should stress that I am not saying that mine is definitely genuine - I don't have any provenance to prove it is. I'm simply saying that new information has come to light relatively recently that supposedly confirms there are some real examples. Information that I believe may be made common knowledge at some point in the future.
And of course there is still the biggest mystery of all - why the unique medallion?
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Hi Gerald...Not to disagree with you.
I was just stating the official reply from Seiko. I don't know how come your source from Seiko is different as mine said this is the official answer since they find no sales record and most importantly, no manufacture record. Even if they do it for internal use, there will be a manufacture record.
To answer your 'questions', carved dial is indeed rare and fragile to make. These are the earlier generation and one can imagine some of these watches were in very bad condition. Grand Seiko was never that popular 5-10 years ago, let alone 15-20 years ago. So to 'dissect' various pieces and put together one good watch is not that difficult or costly. Even right now a good condition YG 3180 cost only around $2k+, given that GS3180 is pretty sought after. As for the medallion, if it's done by Seiko, why the need to create a unique one when their Platinum model use the ordinary medallion? I would think to make these are not that difficult if you come with your own design, compared to making one similar to the original which one can compare. I do believe the lion in both medallion is different too. Why is there a difference? Anyway such discourse is commonly found in Omega thread and it happens that such 'redial' and 'franken' watches were pretty common during those period.
To me it doesn't matter what the answer is but the information is very interesting and educational. We can always agree to disagree. Just note that it is not what I say, I'm just a messenger, sharing what I heard from Seiko.
To answer your 'questions', carved dial is indeed rare and fragile to make. These are the earlier generation and one can imagine some of these watches were in very bad condition. Grand Seiko was never that popular 5-10 years ago, let alone 15-20 years ago. So to 'dissect' various pieces and put together one good watch is not that difficult or costly. Even right now a good condition YG 3180 cost only around $2k+, given that GS3180 is pretty sought after. As for the medallion, if it's done by Seiko, why the need to create a unique one when their Platinum model use the ordinary medallion? I would think to make these are not that difficult if you come with your own design, compared to making one similar to the original which one can compare. I do believe the lion in both medallion is different too. Why is there a difference? Anyway such discourse is commonly found in Omega thread and it happens that such 'redial' and 'franken' watches were pretty common during those period.
To me it doesn't matter what the answer is but the information is very interesting and educational. We can always agree to disagree. Just note that it is not what I say, I'm just a messenger, sharing what I heard from Seiko.
Lastly...these are very desirable because they don't come that often, just like the platinum version. If they do, obviously the desire factor will drop.
I'm sorry if I offend anyone here with this sharing...
if I do hear otherwise from Seiko, I will share. Franken or not, this is a beautiful watch. No doubt about that.
Still, your V.F.A still win the fight any day, without any dispute.
Still, your V.F.A still win the fight any day, without any dispute.
No reason for anyone to take offence
Hi John -
I don't think anyone should take any offence from this. Certainly from my perspective, it's a fascinating discussion. Clearly you and I have different contacts who have different perspectives on the matter. Hopefully one day there will be an official public statement, or incontrovertible provenance provided, to clear it up once and for all.
Regarding the lions, already on the filled gold 3180 there are two different types of lion - the earlier of which is very similar, though I believe not identical, to the one on my SS3180. My early carved dial/mountain hand 3180 is due to arrive tomorrow, and I plan to write something up for my blog on the lion differences in the next week or two.
Finally, it would be remiss of me not to point out that - despite all my intrigue about why and how a particular specific example of a SS3180 may or may not come to be in existence - I do acknowledge that fake ones exist. As stated in my first response, I believe the latest example to come to the market to be fake. The motivation for faking something like this is clear. What I struggle with is the rationale for doing it in a specific manner.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Thanks...
Hi Gerald...Can you educate me why you are so certain that the recent SS3180 is a fake one while it looks very similar to those that you mentioned that are real?
It also has the chronometer medallion, similar dial, movement and case. So what make this particular model a fake? I think the buyer paid around $8500 for it.
Thanks in advance.
It also has the chronometer medallion, similar dial, movement and case. So what make this particular model a fake? I think the buyer paid around $8500 for it.
Thanks in advance.
The hour indices...
... are totally wrong.
Have a look at a Seiko Liner Chronometer...
Have a look at a Seiko Liner Chronometer...
I think this latest example...
illustrated an important point. It literally has the correct dial, correct case and even the correct medallion. But it has a different hour indices. All the other examples that you think is real have various variants but they are consider authentic? So how this specific specimen come to have all the right things except one wrong indice. Not challenging you but I think it is worth a thought here. Can this be another variant of SS3180, since there are so many different ones out there?
Image for reference.
page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp
t502103243#enlargeimg
No, I did not say that. Please don't misrepresent what I have said.
What I said was that according to two different sources, the SS3180 exists as a real watch made by Seiko. I made no claim that the ones that I am aware of are considered to be authentic. I even specifically said with regards to my own personal watch "I should stress that I am not saying that mine is definitely genuine - I don't have any provenance to prove it is." I struggle to see how you can take that statement and then accuse me of claiming that all the existing SS3180s that I am aware of are "considered authentic".
Excepting the unique medallion, the variations between the watches I listed also exist as variations you can find in the regular gold-filled 3180. Significant details of the most recent SS3180 to be sold do not. It is not an unreasonable conclusion to reach that the chances of that one being a fake are considerably higher than the other ones that I have knowledge of.
Officially, they do not exist.
But they do. Why and how?
The best guess from the God of Adjustment at SEIKO is that there were bunch of prototype parts made in SS, and someone assembled the movement from the spare parts and put them in the prototype SS cases. His best guess is the SS in the market would be less than 10 or even 5. SEIKO service center will service it, I think. But even if not, my guy at SEIKO will. In fact, I asked him to, when I got one and made it +/- 3 sec per day, and also admitted that all the parts are genuine and this IS GS, although there is no record of it.... And notice that those SS 3180 are all relatively new.
So, rare, but tricky rare. And there is a guy who can service it. They also made Platinum one and it is far rarer....
This is no "Frankenstein", but made with genuine GS parts - thus authentic.
Ken
Medallion?
Hi Ken -
Is your medallion steel or gold? It's hard to make out in the photo.
Interestingly we are now seeing differences on the inside of the case back as well. The markings on mine are identical to yours. One of the other ones out there is very different.
FWIW, my movement number is quite close to yours - 1291xx
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Is your medallion steel or gold? It's hard to make out in the photo.
Interestingly we are now seeing differences on the inside of the case back as well. The markings on mine are identical to yours. One of the other ones out there is very different.
FWIW, my movement number is quite close to yours - 1291xx
Kind regards,
Gerald.
Brilliant reply and insight :-)
WOWOWWOWOOOWWOWOWOW.....you know the Seiko God!!! I heard he is phenomenon. Kudos to you . You must introduce me to him one day
. You must introduce me to him one day
Sure I will - he is the one of the team members who re-started GS line in the modern days.
When he finishes his current task - training the customer service center watchmakers all around the world. He seldom is in Japan, at the age of around 60. Poor old man. He is so underappreciated and I really think that he deserves some national medal, which several of his colleagues received from the government.....
Ah my friend this delves into another interest/collecting obsession of mine, maybe the Medal of Honor or Order of the Rising Sun? I know a lot of watchmakers have received Japan's Medal of Honor (Civil Division of course)
but has there ever been one that is so worthy of receiving the nation's Order of the Rising Sun? It seems to be the case here He has certainly advanced his field and made a significant contribution to it.
P.S. Just a related question, what ribbon do watchmakers usually receive if awarded with the Medal of Honor, Green, Yellow ? They seem to be similar requirements to earn either of these as I know Green was "replaced" by Yellow around the 50s but I'm not sure if the Green was revived since then.
He has certainly advanced his field and made a significant contribution to it. P.S. Just a related question, what ribbon do watchmakers usually receive if awarded with the Medal of Honor, Green, Yellow ? They seem to be similar requirements to earn either of these as I know Green was "replaced" by Yellow around the 50s but I'm not sure if the Green was revived since then.
An update...
I hope it's ok posting this link here. TGSG is a commerical site, but more than that I expend a significant amount of time and money on research and sharing insight with the wider community, so it's not all about selling watches.
Here's 6,000 words on the Grand Seiko First in Stainless Steel -
Kind regards,
Gerald.
(If it's not ok to link to articles such as this one, purely based on the page they are published on, then mods of course feel free to delete this post.)