Richard Mille

I recently decided to try Richard Mille and decided to buy a RM010 before considering something more expensive.  That was only a few months ago, and I've been surprised by the number of complaints here about quality issues.  For the incredibly high prices that exceed those of Patek Philippe, I expect and demand much higher quality!

The final straw was seeing the posts just a few before this one about tarnish:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

That simply should not happen with a new watch.

If you look through the posts here, you will see lots of other posts with quality issues, such as the following:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

I found the above post unsettling, because I was considering buying a RM004.  I'm glad so far I've only bought a RM010, and not something more expensive.

Another more recent post about quality issues is the following:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

and here's another post about problems:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

and another:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

Besides all the complaints of quality, when I see posts like the following about costs of rubber straps, I'm suspicious that RM charges much more than the watches are worth:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

I'm still keeping an open mind about RM, but right now I'm starting to quastion whether it is worth it.  Would anyone from RM care to comment?

For the record, I have not had any problems with my RM010 ... yet.

Eric von Schonberg
This message has been edited by eric.vonschonberg on 2008-10-15 10:11:44 This message has been edited by eric.vonschonberg on 2008-10-15 10:13:33

I agree eric RM are priced too high and by the sounds of all the problems whether minor or not they seem to be having alot of issues, i really think they need to look at there quality control procedures and there pricing

It's always sad to see people complaining about their watches, but, even if I'm not a RM Fan, I will defend it here.

I agree that pricey watches have to be Perfect, but since they're manufactured, ALL the watches can be at the center of the polemic....

If we start this way, I can assure you that you can make the same sum up with PP, VC, JLC, AP, and all the greatest brands!

We can also sum up the number ( important, and even much more important ) of the people who are happy with their watches.

Posting a thread about the Quality of the Finish, or the reliability of a watch is fine.

Posting a kind of " worst of " in terms of finish or reliability, is, IMO, and with due respect...Not fair.

Best, Eric!

Nicolas

... there's a major difference between PP, VC, AP, JLC.... and RM watches. RM is a new watchmaker that haven't proved himself yet. If you followed the history of Richard Mille, you can see that he basically focused on making a superbe design, use new material, and inject tonnes of Cash in marketing. Reminds me a little of the revival of Hublot except that he targeted the top of the top. Making very limited quantities but selling them extremely high priced. There will always be rich ppl that will be interested, especially that like i said, the design is very eye catching.
About PP, VC, AP, JLc, you are right, there might be imperfections, from time to times as they are manufactured and the fact that the human hand is working on it day after day, month after month, that ppl are human, they got their moods, etc... but its exactly why we love them, and live with their imperfections. Even more, we sometimes end up loving them for their imperfections.
In the end, we must admit that if we call them "the 5 big boys", with breguet and blancpain, its because they have been proving themselves over so many years to be making the most amazing watches. They carry a history.
 Nice of you though to defend RM, even if i think they don't deserve it. Shooting unjustifiable prices, jst to target a special niche, you got to prove sooner or later that you deserve to be where you placed youself.

P.s: But there is a justice, in auction prices are often slashed to 1/3 of list price. While Patek break records

K.

To that list of great proven watch brands, I'd add Lange.  The reason I mention them in particular is that they are fairly new, having been reestablished in the early 90s.  But, in a short time, they have proven themselves and have a reputation for quality.  I like a lot of the design concepts around RM watches, so I'd like to see them make it too, but design concepts are enough, and quality is demanded.  The fact that Lange made it in a short time proves that a watch brand doesn't have to have hundreds of years of history to be considered among the select few of the greatest.  The prices RM charges certainly suggests they see themselves among the greatest watches.  Let's see them execute on that!
Eric von Schonberg

No message body

It has earned a reputation for outstanding reliability.  Journes are very well made watches, and yet the brand has been around for not longer than Richard Mille has.
Eric von Schonberg

what are you talking about eric.

I have owned seven  journes since 2001, five  went back for sevice one was 100k tourbillon.I own 2 RM for three years no problem what so ever.Your just upset you got ripped for you posts on the forbes article.

 

 

to the whole of the brand.  They are at best ad-hoc data points.  If we really tried, I bet we could find positive and negative stories to tell on each and every brand.

Andrew H

Based on what I know about the market overall, it is ironic that Journe is being applauded (I can name numerous examples of new watches not running properly, hands that come off, etc) in the same thread as one that is questioning RM quality.

To be clear, ALL brands can improve, since NONE are perfect.

Also, in reference to the ridiculous thread on HoMe about the ABR, price DOES make a difference in what can be reasonably expected.  Thus it is only fair that RM be held to a higher standard.

That said, it is extremely dangerous to draw overarching conclusions based on self reported single individual commentary which often cite anecdotal supporting examples.

Which is why I personally don't make a point of trying to draw conclusions, or publicize, small sample experiences.

Alas, on the other hand, I don't know of a better alternative...

through an associate, i have the experience of knowing a journe that spent more time at the workshop than on the owner's possession........ despite repeatly attempts to service the watch, the problem persisted......

but i dun bash fp journe watches based on this.........

who's the hell told you that ??? i m sorry to say but a friend got 2 FP JOURNE and both of them got big problems !!!!

... its true that watchmakers don't need to have hundred of years behind them to be ranked among the best. A. Lange is a very good exemple and Journe also. You can really feel that these 2 are more into doing gr8 watches and focus solely on that. They are less about doing marketing and trying to bet on communication and advertising. They have a classic, discret style. RM did the exact opposite. Focus on style and marketing. In the end, true watch lovers, are going to look underneath the facade. That's when you start wondering what you are paying for? Some make you over pay for their exclusivity and the magic around their watches ( like patek ) But there again, you are buying magic, something that makes you dream, that carries a long history behind it and a futur ahead ( patek slogan is " you will never be the owner of a Patek... you will jst be its guardian for the next generation" with a pics of a father and son doing something together ). In the end, its difficult to judge the price of something that makes you dream. On top of that, they make amazing watches, superb finishing, etc...
It very legit to wonder about the price tag of RM watches.

Hi Eric,
You are perfectly right to have doubts and it is good to be outspoken. Nobody is perfect, even a brand ;-) !
And I fully comprehend that the price/quality experience relates to these issues.
However, I would like to answer your comments with my own real life experiences- and I am telling you the absolute truth below:

-My very first Swiss wristwatch was a steel GP manual wind I bought on my birthday in Boston 1976. It still keeps perfect time and looks wonderful...

-My very first expensive wristwatch was a Blancpain Flyback- I just loved this watch's styling, was under the Blancpain sales pitch influence and at that time had to save up for it. After about 1 month, the crown broke off, just like that. It cost me a fortune to ship it back, and was very upsetting. I was expecting the ultimate Swiss experience for my cash and got this instead!

-This was followed by 3 different Pateks in the course of a few years. All three of them broke and had to be repaired in Switzerland, gone for weeks and weeks on end. Two of these had oiling issues (the watches had been 'baked' too long under the dealer's spotlights, so the oil suffered). The third was a mechanical problem.

-My RM 003-V2 kept perfect time, and never had any issues whatsoever. It was as stable as could be, even being worn regularly.

The result of all this?
I have a steel PP Nautilus on order, and I still carry a warm heart for PP; I also hear of problems with GP, yet I have had none; my RM was OK, others have difficulties...Go figure..

Three more points before I stop- please bear with me !
1. The RM brand, despite all of its fame, is a very young, very small brand. Just because it is famous, does not mean it can't learn from its mistakes. If PP and others with 100+ years experience still have difficulties, it only proves that even a simple mechanical watch is quite a wonder of a machine, and very difficult to get exactly right.

2. I was directly involved in following up several of the problem situations you present above about RM, and although people are quick to complain, the issues brought up here were dealt with in an efficient manner, and the results were not posted. Sure, they shouldn't have happened. But the strength is in the correction of the issue, in my view. RM is working hard to streamline and develop a comprehensive support for any and all customers who have difficulties...But it takes time and won't happen overnight.

In any case, your remarks are important, and I can assure you they are read and listened to. There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

However, I opt for the racing driver position: If Kimi makes a mess on the track, I still like his style and believe he's a good driver. It is also the reason that I am buying yet anther PP after having 3 break down. Sometimes the love we have for our watches is exactly like love...There are always bumps in the road, but we do our best to keep the spirit and essence to smooth things out.

Of course I'm biased, as I work for the RM brand. Nonetheless, what I am saying here is from me as a person and a fellow collector like yourself.

Just my 2 (long!) cents for whatever it is worth!

Theodore Diehl

btw i luv my rm005..........

indeed it is very expensive (at least to me) but everything i wear it and look at it, i feel great and enjoy my moments with it.....

and the fact is has performed steadfastly since the day of purchase helps in the experience of ownership of cos.....

 

Theodore,
First of all, I should remind you that my only RM, a RM010, has been working great with no problems whatsoever.  Also, you and several others on this message board have mentioned at various times that their RMs work great too.

But,  there are people who have had problems, and my concerns are that these problems appear to be ones that should not occur if RM had a good means of quality control.

Since you work for the RM brand, do you think we could get a response about these problems if you mentioned this message board?  I'm especially interested personally in hearing about their take on the RM004 problems, since that is a watch I'm considering buying.  But, I'm sure others here are interested in the responses for the other problems noted.
Eric von Schonberg

the RM-004 issues are addressed by the company...

TM

As I posted below, I have every reason to believe these are
minor issues, and that all of these problems will be fixed for
good. I will update everyone end of November when I expect
to have my RM004 back.
Greg

with the arguments (see below), but appreciate your reply here.  Hope to see you soon.

Andrew H

I find your posts to be a 'love/hate' relationship with Richard Mille watches.  You have bought a RM010, which by your own admittence runs just fine; yet you wish to trawl the archives here and find almost every instance of someone complaining about their RM watch.  You have not noted the incidence over time, whether the individual has repeated the complaint, or the degree of seriousness.  You have not undertaken a search on other forums and noted complaints.  You have not noted whether the individual has re-posted that everything with the watch is now fine.  Lets say there are 10 to 15 complaints on the 1000's of RM watches that have been manufactured.  If this was a representative capture of everyone owning a RM watch AND filing a post with a complaint, the failure rate at n=1000 is 1.5.  That is unbelievably small.

Further, remember that most of the time (no pun intended), RM watches involve something new in terms of finish or construction.  If you are using a well worn movement, with standard technology, and throwing that movement in a new case, then sure, the likelihood of failure or problem with the movement is less.  New surface finishes, new materials, new movements require time to sort out what is wrong - perhaps only a significant number of years down the track.  Couple that in with the idiosyncracies of a watch that is hand made, and you wonder why the problem rate is not higher.

You make the classic case of inferring individual facts onto your situation rather than looking at the average or marginal rate.  How do you ever get on an airplane?  It is the same mentality - if one airplane has a problem today, then mine probably will next time too. 

What matters is that RM watches put the problem right when it arises.  I bought a tourbillon from another manufacturer.  It started losing time after one month of purchase.  It had to return on two further occasions before it was running with precision.  The whole process took 18 months.  Why did I persist - I loved the watch in spite of the problems and now it runs with unbelievable accuracy.  In some sense, and this is not an excuse, you have to love the watches you own in spite of the problems.  If you are going to agonise over the issue that your RM MIGHT stop/fail/run slow/tarnish at some point in the future, my advice to you is buy a Casio G-Shock and be done with it.

I know that Richard would love to have absolutely every watch he produces run perfectly first time and for the known future.  However, no manufacturer can claim that, and hence, you are left with the second best world for everyone: all manufacturers and watch owners alike.

Richard prices watches on the cost plus mark-up.  His watches, as the numbers above suggest are very reliable.  If they were not, why would so many people buy them and continue to buy them??? 

His watches are innovative, exploratory, unique in design, and the Richard Mille watches business model opened up a whole new avenue for watch manufacture that others have borrowed off.  Before dragging up a few ad-hoc statistics and internalizing the argument to relate only to you, I would kindly suggest you consider wider arguments before posting such unfounded allegations.  Richard does not need to respond - the Richard Mille watch on your wrist, along with thousands of others, is the only response he needs to consider.

Andrew H

... fiercely! It is something anyone understand and respects. There is a lot of truth in ur reply, but also, you are not very objective in some points.

1-All the ppl that own a RM and had problems with them are not necessarly posting them here. I personnally have a friend that got one, not happy with it, trying to sell it ( unsuccessfully ), but never entered such forums.

2- Its true that RM use innovative materials, movements, etc... And thats a very good thing. Problem, is when you don't test ur innovations hard enough, u end up having surprise, and its the customers that do. The tarnishing of elements and discoloration is unacceptable in this category of watches. Its the worst publicity, and you can do nothing about it, because it simply shows you haven't done their homework before putting your watch on the market. I suggest you check what A. Lange is doing with its Datograph perpetual .... alang.watchprosite.com /

3- The g-shock argument you came up with, is a blow under the belt. We all know about watchmanufacturing, we all know that a lot of gr8 watches need fine tuning to run better. We all loved watches that were not "perfect", but they carried a sentimental value, that made us love them despite some failures. And most of all, we are not blaming RM watches to run 6s late per day. Jst that some ppl are having a hard time accepting some imperfections for a watch that carries such a price ( like discoloration or tarnished elements,... or a the chrono not coming back to its initial place, pushers not work well )

4- About RM watches selling with a mark-up, i suggest u jst ask for a discount, and you will see that you will get it. In auctions, some watches are going at 1/3 of their prices, and that was before the actual crisis. The hype about RM is over already since a couple of years. You can fool some ppl once, but u cannot fool all the pp all the time. Some ppl will buy it jst because it comforts them to wear a very expensive and impressive watch, and often, money burns them in their pocket, they need to spend it on the most expensive things. These ppl are rarely watch lovers or carry a passion for watches. Hard thing is that usually this kind of clientele get bored very quickly. And move on to the next new hype thing.
Maybe that's why RM started  a new range of more affordable watches. Reminder, in the beginning, starting price for the entry model of RM was 250,000euro. About the number of ppl buying his watches, its easy to throw such arguments. Not what i noticed. I was this summer in Monaco for 2 month. I was all over the french riviera. We agree there is a gr8 concentration of wealth in the summer over there. I saw only 1 russian wearing an RM005. Even the russians ( known for loving to buy the most expensive and the best )  went mainly for watches like Hublot, Roger Dubuis and AP offshore limited Editions.

5- i suggest we trust a little more those that post in the forums. How do u know they are unfounded allegetions? You like Richard and you love his watches, good for you, and we can understand that you want to give your point of view, but that doesn't make the ppl that post in this forum, liars, that post unfounded allegations.

6- Sorry if i am being a bit harsh, its jst the tone of ur reply that put me in that mood.

K.

The only thing I'll add is to reiterate that I see potential with RMs innovation, and would like to see RM watches be considered highly reliable well made watches that live up to their price tags.
Eric von Schonberg

... has to say about it. I felt i went a bit strong, but when i read again, its really what i think. The fun part is that i honestly think that most models look amazing! )
Saw the latest RM016, very eye catching. Only problem is that i don't trust the watch is as good as it looks

And I already said it...

Of course it may be interesting to know how RM Watches may be so high priced, and to discuss of this point, as well as
The Quality of The Finish, the reliability, etc...

We certainly can have a very interesting discussion, indeed!

BUT, making this kind of post, posting every link about criticizes on RM Reliability or Finish is maybe not loyal...

I can tell you that if you go on the PP Forum, you will see quite often people complaining about their PP watches, and much often people who is happy with their watches ( PP, RM, etc...).

So, imagine if in each forum, we have this kind of compilation of the worst moments of each brand...

While it is more loyal to ask what you think about XXX, or XXX, or What do you think of the finish of XXX, or are these watches reliable, etc...

There is always a place for the controversy, but it may be posted, IMO, in a loyal, fair way...

Best.

Nicolas.

First, I am glad you still find Richard Mille watches enjoyable and fascinating.  I would hate to dull anyone's enthusiasm.  I am not averse to negative comments.  What I am averse to is negative comments without foundation or sufficient fact.  If we wanted this as a all things positive forum, we would not invite debate.  However, the tone of my reply was set by recent posts that are negative with insufficient foundation.

On your arguments:

1. Does your friend have a problem, or is it that he does not like the watch.  The first issue - I am sorry for him and he should go see the dealer and have the problem fixed.  If the second issue, then that happens and perhaps he could try the Collectors Market.

2. On the contrary, RM watches are heavily tested.  When he introduced the RM001, Richard would throw it across the room to demonstrate how the watch could take a hit and keep ticking.  He used the tourbillon because you could construct a bridge and cage to hold the balance wheel in place when the watch was subjected to a heavy shock: http://interviews.watchprosite.com/show-nblog.post/ti-351532/  Richard sponsored Felipe Massa to wear the RM watches just so they could be tested under very extreme conditions.  See the following:
www.network54.com ..
www.network54.com
Some materials do tarnish - it is part of the ageing process on some metals.  Without pictures, it is impossible to say what has happened in the case posted recently.  If the problem is serious, take it to the dealer. 

3.  What surprises me is the recent pontificating about Richard Mille watches by Eric, always looking at the negative, yet buying a RM010 that works perfectly well.  Criticism is one thing when deserved, however, I count 4 posts now:

richardmille.watchprosite.com

richardmille.watchprosite.com

richardmille.watchprosite.com

(and other parts of the thread, where even in the face of known experienced watchmakers in this community telling him otherwise, he still insisted his arguments were correct.  Believing in your own thoughts is one thing - not seeing the evidence is another). 

richardmille.watchprosite.com

(I have seen and discussed the depth rating on the cases - at Donze Baum - and once again, the argument is without merit.  See here: richardmille.watchprosite.com )

4. Once again, you extrapolate your experience to be that of all others.  All evidence to the contrary.  Auctions are a different market to new watches: so many different variables in the room (literally).  Rarity usually adds something to the price that would be paid at auction: richardmille.watchprosite.com

http://www.coolhunting.com/archives/2007/07/only_watch_auct.php

Exceptions do not prove a rule.

5. As the record on this forum shows, I have taken up the cause of any RM enthusiast posting here when asked, as has Theodore during his tenure.  We both take, and have taken every complaint at face value and helped in any way that we could.  We will continue to do so.  

Andrew H

 

 

 

... around 5-6 years ago. A friend and business partner was wear an RM tourbillon. Don't recall the exact reference. But i recall very well my 1st impression. It was waaaooow, felt like AP released a new model ... then he told that its a new watchmaker that used to collaborat with AP, etc... For me it was THE nicest watch i've seen since a long time. Watch industy need a serious shake up, with such innovations. Later on, i was in Paris, and passed by my AD, there was a big media campaign about the launch of the RM005.
It was supposed to be the "affordable" entry level model. I was very excited in the beginning, but i was a bit turned off that price was fixed and maybe a mark-up. The AD made me feel that because only a few will be made, i should be thankfull if i could put my hand on one. Being very hard headed and proud, i left the shop, cold blooded, and thought of taking a step back, and see how all this will make it through time. I knew that every hype about a new thing had 50%  chances to resist the "TIME" factor )

And in my opinion, it didn't. Hype went down. Among my entourage, when we were talking about watches, we would almost all agree that RM watches were not up to what we expected. Focus went more to brands like A. Lange and Journe. Its really a revealing coincidence that someone brought it up here today in this forum. Maybe we expected too much in the 1st place. Maybe the hype around it in the media, lead to a disapointment. It back fired in a way. But bottom line, the flame slowly estinguished. While i am appreciating more and more brands like A. Lange.

 I will reply to ur comment :

1- Forget about my friend, i was jst pointing that not all RM disappointed owners are posting in this forum.

2-  I don't know how seriously RM watches are tested, but it seems its not enough. U must understand that when a watchmaker insist on marketing, the moment small flaws appear ( i won't name them again ), we naturally think that we have been victims of advertising. 1st reaction is that RM should have put more time and money on testing her innovations, rather than focusing on marketing its watches. Again, some serious brand do very little marketing, but are seriously recognized as being top watchmakers.

About felipe massa wearing an RM and showing how its tested in extreme conditions. Personally, i give much more credit to the posting of some respectable passionned members in this forum that i read daily, and i learn with time that they are honest in their opinions. But then again, that's me...

3- About Eric, you cannot blame him... you must see it as a cry for help to RM ... he loves the watch obviously.

4- About the auction, i shouldn't given you this example ( which is true btw) Its a good thing to see watches being sold at auctions for a good price. Unlike PP that beats records everytime. In the end, we are all on the other side of the border ( the buying side ).
Jst a little word about the link u sent. Its a unique limited series of 35, specially designed by Philippe Starck for the charity auction held in Monaco for the boatshow in 2007. Gathering the richest ppl that will buy boats that cost from 10mil to 150mil euro, not hard to sell unique pieces, that looks amazing btw. But it doesn't give the right idea of how the 2nd market of RM watches in general. I must reply to you that the exception doesn't make the rule

5- I must admit that you are indeed enthousiast about RM. Theodore is doing also a gr8 job talking about RM. I learned from reading his posts, and feels good to know that someone from RM is so involved in RM owners problems.

if we had all the same opinion on things, we wouldn't be debating i guess.

I want to add  that personally, i find some models being really SEXY ( like the RM016, that i saw in a shop for the 1st time this summer )

K.

that people share their views, and believe me, Richard Mille reads and listens and takes steps to put things right.  Each to their own and to their own tastes.

Someone has to push the envelope - see what is possible, or all watches would look like Patek and Lange.  Both brands I have the highest of regard for and think that some of their recent developments are brilliant - Lange especially.  I will admit that at the cutting edge, Richard is at his most brilliant and it shows: the RM001/2/6/9/12/ and now the 18.  As a company, Richard Mille is a great success and his watches continue to sell. 

I am sorry that you have fallen a little dis-enchanted with RM watches.  However, tastes evolve over time and it sounds from your post as if that RM016 is calling you.  I will note that the movement in the RM016 is now in its third or fourth iteration and a number of the problems that bugged the early RM005's have now been sorted out.  If it speaks to you, and you can afford it, then why not.  If it does not, then dont buy it.  Your money, your tastes, your watch - buy what you love.

Good luck and wear whatever you buy in the very best of health.

Andrew H

... I would buy more then 1 ) ... but its true that the RM016 is the one that is calling me the most right now :P
One thing is very true, Thanks god some new watchmakers such as RM come up with new designs, innovate with new materials and make superb watches. They don't all succeed in it. For example, Custos has obviously inspired himself a little too much from RM, and hasn't succeeded. They look like fade copies

K.

You are right that it's a cry for help to RM.  If I didn't see so much potential in RM, I'd just move on to another watch brand.  What's clear about this thread is that there are others like me who are having misgivings about RMs.  If I were RM, I'd want to take this criticism as an opportunity to improve, so that RM watches can truly live up to their high expectations.
Eric von Schonberg

welcome here.  One of the reasons this forum exists is to air views and Theodore Diehl and Richard Mille do visit this forum and read comments (as other representatives do for other brands).  What matters is that the claims are made in a stated and non-inflamatory manner.  The fact of the matter is that all brands, including Patek, Lange, Journe, and AP (I can give a personal example here as well) all have problems with watches every now and then.  The occurences are very small compared with the number of watches out there.  When it happens, irrespective of the price (as someone has parted with their hard earned money), the consumer rightly objects.  It happens.  If the brand puts it right, then it is just an occurance that has been unfortunate, annoying, but ultimately, has been corrected.  It should not happen, but occasionally it does.  What makes this an incorrect sweeping statement is if you then generalize that RM (or whichever brand) has a major problem with quality control and that to charge such prices, with that quality control means the company is in trouble.  This is wholly untrue, almost liable, and I will not stand for such statements on this forum.

This forum exists to discuss RM watches, good and bad, what you like and dislike, and as such your contributions are very welcome.

Thanks

Andrew H