Independents

A curious post to see what some think.

I recently saw the new Roger Smith Watch #2 and checked on prices (not that I was buying) and was shocked to see the cost of this watch.  Curious as to why when compared to others of the same vein.

Is the priced based on his association and work with George Daniels and is he using this to justify a higher price or is it based on actual worth?

Some prices for comparison in US funds (found on the Internet)

Smith #2 - $70,000

Dufour Simplicity - $41,000

FP Journe Souverain - $20,500

All 3 I assume use CNC machines to cut the plates with hand finishing.  Not all parts made in house

I know Journe makes more watches than both Smith and Dofour, but still an inhouse movement and platinum case

Question is.  Why the large difference between prices

Tick

The Simplicity definitely wins easily in term of finishing and beauty compare to a Journe CS.
Its parts are hand polished to such perfection that just make you feel breathless
Also, there will only be 200 Simplicity as it is discontinued.
As for Series 2, if you have bought it when it first come out....the price should be around the same as Simplicity.
Try getting a Simplicity now at list price, I think it will be impossible.
For me, Simplicity is the ultimate, followed extremely closely by Kari Chronometre and then the Series 2.
Jmho
Lovesss*CL

(that I know of) so his pricing is hard to compare to others. It is hard to value art also.

But one thing I am reasonable certain of having talked to Roger is that material costs went up, labor went up, the time to manufacture each piece went up, and I think he raised his price in order to cover his expenses. Lets face it these guys are not getting rich. Most work out of their homes/ garages with some assistants, and they create something from nothing. It can not be easy.

Also with respect to Rogers watch he has the Co-axial escapement from Daniels. If you check Antiquorum for watches with alternative escapements, very few, or even the Duality for that matter, they are quite special. Ok, no Omega comments. Finally RS Series 2 start at $62,500, still a lot, but there is at this point a considerable wait and he locks in the price when you order, so when you get it, it would be more. I tried to get on a list for a Patek, and they told me 2 years with no price guarantee.

As CL mentioned, try finding a Simplicity now for what they originally sold for. Try to find a watch better finished. So what is the finest finished watch in the worlds value?
One can only ask himself what the value is. It is hard to compare a Monet to a Renoir, and these watches like art that just have to be appreciated by the buyer enough to justify the price.
Again, none of these guys are getting rich and they are all are at the very very top of the world in their chosen profession. I wish them all the best in their endeavors and truly hope the markets continue to support this type of work.

JMHO

Jay

Price is determined by what people are willing to pay.  If Roger, or any of them, can sell at that price, then there are obviously people willing to pay the price.  I'm don't think there can be any meaningful discussion about the relative costs of labour, materials, manufacturing costs etc, as my guess is they're not significant factors in the price differences.

I'm not sure that Roger's connection with Daniels is a major factor.

My guess is that the major factor is the absurd increase in the price of luxury watches of the last half dozen years.  When the original Simplicity series came out, the pricing was adapted to the market price of the time.  The market prices have since exploded, and the price of the Roger Smith Series 2 probably reflects this overall increase.

This is just my guess based on gut feeling.  I'm not sure of the cohronology of the pricing timing and the various watches you mention.  Can someone else comment?

nick

regarding prices. Prices are determined by supply and demand, not costs.

It seems to me that as a manufacturer of "luxury" goods, you would set prices somewhere between what you perceive the market values your product and what you think the market will bear. If prices are set to high, then either excess inventory will accumulate or there will be significant discounts to MSRP.

It's not like a watch is essential to one's well being (well maybe for some) and no one is forced to give into one's desires and purchase one. Moreover, does it really matter if the guys are getting rich or not? It appears that they are doing an honest day's work so great for them whatever financial reward they can reap.

And how much do you think the watchmaker's time is worth?  Just rough guesses of course. 

Oh I guess at that real job they pay you huh? BTW next week it might be here, so maybe we can meet for dinner and you can do the final honors ;-).

I've no idea.  But the question was why are there such big differences in price in products that are apparently comparable.

nick

Hi Nick,

I apologize if my previous post seemed a little curt.  I was short on time, but I also felt a little insulted on Roger and Philippe's behalf that you would claim that the prices of their watches are not significantly influenced by the costs of manufacturing them.  I find this to be ridiculous in the extreme. 

Tim Jackson has ably laid out below some of the differences in the production costs these two small workshops incur, and I'd throw in the complete case into the equation as well as I believe Roger is making that also.  Last I heard, he was making each and every wheel in his workshop and it wouldn't even surprise me if he made most or even all of the screws (I hope for his sake he's found suppliers for SOME of them at least!).  The amount of in-house labor associated with the production of the escapement alone must be staggering.  Only a very small handful of independents actually make their own escapements, and Philippe Dufour is not one of them.

There are huge differences in the production costs associated with the three pieces under discussion and economies of scale come into play significantly not only for the parts made in-house, but also for the ones that are purchased from outside suppliers.  It is plainly obvious to me that these factors significantly affect the final price of the products. There may be some instances where one can well and truly say that the price differences are not any kind of reflection on the costs of manufacturing the item in question, but it's not easy to come up with a particularly demonstrative case study IMHO. 

A while back when Bell & Ross and Sinn were offering remarkably similar watches at pretty dramatically different prices, the argument might've applied well. But what it would've demonstrated even more dramatically is the extent to which the prices were the result of marketing costs as well as other sales-side expenses, since Sinn was selling directly from the factory with no distribution channels to speak of and Bell & Ross was trying to advertise and sell worldwide.   It might not have made the price differential "worth it" to an educated consumer with no attachment to either brand name, but at least one could understand why the prices were so different, it wasn't completely determined by "what people are willing to pay". 
_john

Hi John,

Tim's points are valid, and I wasn't aware that Roger was making everything (I had in mind old interviews for the Series ! where he talked about having components such as wheels produced by suppliers in Switzerland).  I was wrong and I apologise.

However, no one will never convince me that what the market is willing to pay isn't a major factor in pricing for any product.  I worked in the marketing department of a multi-national, and I've sat in far too many pricing meetings to ever believe otherwise.

nick

. . . for the purposes of this discussion the fact that what the market is willing to pay affects pricing is a generalization rather than a point relevant to the specific issue mooted, which is whether or not there is some basis in labor and craft which would in some way account for the greater cost of an RS watch.

John and Tim have very ably presented the relevant facts- the extent to which the manufacturing (not just the design) of components and the degree of specialization of those components (especially the escapement) for RS watches is significantly greater than for the Journe or Dufour watches (at least that is my understanding.) 

Whether Roger's significantly greater investment in labor actually justifies the greater price is a matter of personal judgement, but it seems to me that the actual fact of his greater investment in labor in each piece is not.

Cheers,

Jack

How is a RS worth $50,000 more than a Journe with the same functions or $20,000 more than a Dufour

Both Journe and Dufour also had to put the man hours into designing and both are inhouse movements

There are also a number of others that custom make, but don't charge those prices

Tick

 

This type of question has been raised before. The point is that if one does not appreciate the difference between a) knowing that a watchmaker has personally produced a watch just for you, and b) a production line model, then one should avoid independant watchmaking as a whole. Anyone who has purchased a watch directly from the watchmaker, rather than from a company, retailer or marketing guru will tell you that it is a special experience.

I am willing to bet that RS isnt making profit at that price point (considering the costs involved), so taking into account the craftsmanship that goes into a series II - my opinion is that its a bargain.

single watch maker (the one with his name on the dial) actually sat down and made the watch for you: may it be Dufour, Smith, Halter, Voutilainen et al they have watchmakers working for them and probably the input of the "master" watchmaker is huge but he's probably not the one who worked on the watch from A-Z.

I can't really think of anyone other than Daniel Roth (the man) and Volker Vyskocil who work alone.

I think you are right Alex, Its certainly a grey area. How much 'hands on' input do various watchmakers have on their creations.
Everyone would have their own theories on this.
The great thing about independent watchmaking in general is that one can pick up the phone and talk to  the watchmaker himself. It would become apparent straight away how involved they are. (& of course for some people this is not important)

Hello - I think some here have missed your question really.  Of the 3 mentioned I've only seen one in person (Dufour's Simplicity at his shop) and of the three if I had the funds and the chance, it would be my choice. 

The RS price puzzles me too, since I agree that the escapement is not a major factor here, and certainly from what I see in photos the finishing would not take the same time that it does with a Dufour for instance.  The photos I saw of the plates showed them to be mostly of a matte finished and not much anglage on the movement.

So I guess I agree that it's more marketing than the work that goes into it based on what I've observed.

Regards, Al

I have seen all three watches up close. While the finishing on the Simplicity is not up for discussion, and the Journe, whilst being lovely isn't in the same class from a hand finishing, making almost all parts inhouse etc. It is a serially produced in massive quantities by comparison, with an inhouse movt. certainly.

Here goes...The dials for one are not made by Dufour or Journe's manufactory, nor are the hands or the cases. Roger's dial is made in his workshop, guilloched by hand and the layers are made seperately, each with a different style/pattern of guilloche. Check out the power reserve for instance. Recessed below the main level of the dial. Soldered on after it is hand guilloched. All the writing on the dial is done by hand, carving out the letters, then filling in with a black lacquer/paint. There are also economies of scale coming into play. This is Roger's second wristwatch, with him making almost all of it in his workshop, other than the hairspring, mainspring, crystals and jewels. He makes his own balance and that together with the unique co-axial escapement that he uses as the basic design, from his mentor and friend Dr. Daniels, to build his movement around. This isn't your typical swiss level escapement, and that in of itself makes it stand apart in terms of technical expertise and time to design from scratch. I'm not a watchmaker, but I do know it took thousand of hours to perfect the design. I have to disagree with the above post, it is a major factor...Other details, that should be mentioned, are the 18k hands, hand crafted again. Fundamentally, all this takes time and time as they say is money.

This is not the same co-axial escapement found in the Omega watches. It is a different design, one that is more true to Dr. Daniels' original design, built for longevity.

I hope this helps in some way to give a little more data on the price difference. Is Roger's watch expensive...yes, but so it should be. There is a measurable difference. There are countless examples in  other luxury fields where one can draw analogies, just look at custom hand built high quality cars...or even a bespoke tailored suit of the finest fabric, hand made on Savile Row...

It is very easy to get into trying to quantify and qualify watch prices, after all, much of the watch business is in an almost commoditised form, but this isn't the arena in which Messrs Dufour and Smith reside in. My thinking, is that anyone who can afford a fine watch at this level shouldn't be looking at the pricing so much, once they understand what is involved in making the watch. It takes time to appreciate and understand these watches and sometimes more importantly the watchmaker. At least this is my considered opinion on the subject.

Warm regards,

Tim

 

nt

nt

You have managed to  clearly perceive this argument and explain it. 
One missing  comment is on the cost of the watches in question. From a USA perspective the price has greatly increased, this has more to do with exchange rates and a drop in the value of the US currency than price increases by independent watchmakers.

Roger Smith is manufacturing, in house, with his equipment, by himself and his staff everything required for his watch including the dial and case.
The only items he is purchasing from specialist houses are, the jewels, mainsprings, hairsprings and the glasses for the case and that is it !
Roger is manufacturing, in house with his own equipment the Co-Axial escapement and the balance.

I dont think any of the other makers in this discussion actually manufacture all their components including the case and dial, so to compare them to each other strictly from a cost perspective is unfair to all of them.

David

Tim,

Thank you for the reply and clarification.  I do have some questions/comments however.

Tim wrote: "This is not the same co-axial escapement found in the Omega watches. It is a different design, one that is more true to Dr. Daniels' original design, built for longevity."

Thank you for that - I didn't know it was a different design.  So when you contend this took "thousands of hours to perfect this design" you mean by Smith, correct?  And if the answer is yes then I guess you are indicating he is passing those costs onto his customers if used as "justification" for the prices of his watches? 

Tim wrote: "The dials for one are not made by Dufour or Journe's manufactory, nor are the hands or the cases. Roger's dial is made in his workshop, guilloched by hand and the layers are made seperately, each with a different style/pattern of guilloche."

Do you have direct knowledge of the costs being more for the dials and cases produced by Smith in house rather than bought in for someone like Dufour?  I understand the dial for the Smith is "more complex" but when you say that Smith's are "hand guilloched" you seem to imply that Dufour's aren't.  Maybe that was not intentional, but I think if people are going to start dissecting these arguments we need to be careful about how we do it.

Tim wrote: "Other details, that should be mentioned, are the 18k hands, hand crafted again. Fundamentally, all this takes time and time as they say is money."

So are you saying that Dufour's hands are not hand crafted?

I believe that what is "justified" is up to the person buying the watches, but in order to argue various points as facts, you would have to have direct knowledge of the costs invoved.  Maybe you have those costs, and if so then I will stand corrected.  If not, then it's all speculation IMO.

Best regards, Al

Hi Al,
In my response to your post, I didn't want to get into lengthy discussions of actual costs of components etc. I don't have exact cost prices, but I do know the differences in parts and finishes, and the time taken to get the finished product.
I do know this that, those that understand what is involved in making a Dufour or R.W. Smith, and obviously like the aesthetic of the finished pieces, together with the watchmaker and his philosophy, have no problem paying the price.

As to the dial question, I  think you know that Roger's are infinitely more complex to make being multi-layered, with the guilloche on 3 different layers. I do not know for a fact that Dufour's dials aren't hand guilloched, so assuming they are hand done, the name printing on Roger's dial engraved first by hand and then painted by hand, takes more time and skill for sure. This simply adds up to costing more. It is not to say it is better, just costs more to execute.

The hand's question, I'm pretty sure Dufour's hands are made by a company that has taken his design and is producing them by machine. Roger's are hand crafted from the start. If someone has other knowledge, please let me know.
Ultimately, the price is determined by how much it costs to make...Whether or not buyers will pay is up to them. There is little to no advertising and marketing budget from what I can tell, other than the occasional show like Basel and Tempus, where these guys get some exposure. Contrast this with the Ad's one regularly sees for the big watch companies.

I wholly agree that the market will determine whether or not these watches sell at these prices. It is of course a different market than the mainstream watch buying market. Therein lies the difference.  These watches are for those that understand and appreciate the watchmaker and get what his philosophy on watchmaking is. They are not for most collectors in my opinion.
Can they be appreciated by many, certainly, but it takes a level of trust in one's understanding and appreciation that most don't truly have to be comfortable paying these prices. After all, they just tell the time.

I guess it comes down to why do people pay for a hand made suit, when you can buy a lovely Armani off the shelf or whoever else takes your fancy...I do know this though, there are those willing to pay.

Hope this helps clarify.

Warm regards,

Tim

Other than I now know for sure that you don't know the actual costs involved.

I want to say that although I might be mistaken, your post seems to indicate that someone who questions the costing of one of these custom pieces must not fully "appreciate" or "understand" them.  Maybe that was not intentional, but that is the way the post came across to me since you made reference to those who appreciate/understand them more than once.  For reference, I have seen enough in various watch factories and at places like Dufour's atelier, and also done enough finishing and assembly work on my own to say that I think I understand what goes into a custom piece like that.  I also work in a manufacturing environment that requires tolerances on products much tighter than there would be on any wrist watch, so I completely understand the concept that "more goes into this than appears on the surface."

IMO this question, and any comment I have made certainly, had nothing to do with "Are they worth the money?" but more to do with "Why is X more than Y?"

Maybe some here are not comfortable because discussions like this are not always in the Purists line of thinking?  I can agree to that but since the question was asked, I tried my best to give my perspective as others did.  I've learned some things and IMO that is always good when a discussion results in learning. 

We can debate what is more complicated to make and what takes more time or not until the cows come home, but really that information on it's own isn't helpful in understanding the price someone charges with any certainty.  To me the watchmaker has complete control over what he charges by how he values the time put into the piece.  We can say "we think it's more because of the work involved" but none of us really know enough details to be sure I suspect.  Is the time an influence on the cost?  Possibly, and I would even say it's likely, but I can't state that with complete confidence.

I think there is a factor of "what the market will bear" impacting the price charged. 

In the end I would be happy to own either the Smith or the Dufour.

Thank you for the discussion.

Hi Al,
You state "Is time an influence on cost? Possibly, and I would even say it's likely, but I can't state that with complete confidence."
I think  that, this in of itself explains my point that I have been, possibly un-succesfully to you, trying to get across. The value of a the watchmakers time and effort in order to stay in business, is what he uses to price his work. It is still very real and true that if "the market" doesn't think it is worth whatever is asked, it will not sell.

As I'm typing this, I just realised that one aspect that we haven't discussed, is the responsibility of the person, whether or not it is the watchmaker himself or some agent at whatever level, to convey why the price of his work is "worth" what he/she is asking. This is why I think many, myself included, allude to the art world at times when discussing prices. It is very difficult to quantify and value "Time & effort"...Knowing the business end of the watch business as I do, fairly evaluating one's time and effort in pricing, is what these independents do. None of them get rich doing what they do. Over time I hope to see them fluorish and prosper. This will only happen if they give the buyer the compelling reasons for acquiring their product/art piece over someone else's. Put another way, will the market pay what is asked and why?

I certainly agree with you, that one can debate this for a long time.

Ultimately, an informed buyer will decide why a watch is "worth" more than some other watch.

I too have enjoyed this discussion, and I think it is healthy to have such.

Warm regards,

Tim

Journe does create his dials and that of another great House of watches in his ateliers close by the principle atelierone  that composes his watches.  If you mean he personally doesn't make them, you are correct. If you claim he outsources them, you are wrong.
Regards

Hi Marcel Philippe,
I was incorrect in my statement about the manufacturing of the Journe dials.
I do though know this, that Roger's dials take more time to execute. Just for example, the name and any writing on the dial, is first hand engraved, then hand-painted in. This is a process that takes a lot more time and skill, than just printing.
These types of factors all go towards comprising Roger's price.
Warm regards,
Tim

however, what I did see was impressive. They do hand apply numerals on dial and employ muliple layers by individual craftpeople. This I can vouch for. As to the RS dials, like all of his watche parts, (and there are only 3 or so Series 2 finished watches, I believe), they get much more personal attention from RS himself, which makes them so unique.

I do know that many of these independents, whether in watch making or other industry, do it for 'love'.  Although highly priced, the actual profit less cost is not much after repayment of loans, employees salary etc etc.  There is an opportunity cost involved as well, as a talented watch maker could easily find a job working for a 'big' luxury watch brand instead of working on his own.  All in all, given the number of watches that was produced in a year, the selling price has to reflect the reality of survival for the firm to carry our her business/interest.

To imply that it is priced as much as the buyer can bear may be correct for some brands and totally off for others,  This is where an intimate knowledge about the maker, his visions, his works wins you over, steal your heart and kept you awake at night.  I am sure buyers of Roger's watch spoke to him, are impressed with what they see and feel, before forking out the money willingly. 

Regards 

absolutely NO other reason.
It's a beautiful, high quality watch but the reason he can get that price is because there are people willing to pay that price for it.
No magic........just supply and demand. The demand is high as compared to the supply.