MB&F Turtle Automaton: Originality Debate
Discussion

MB&F Turtle Automaton: Originality Debate

By Joepny · Dec 12, 2017 · 17 replies
Joepny
WPS member · Horological Meandering forum
17 replies4343 views8 photos
f 𝕏 in 💬 ✉ 🔗

Joepny's thought-provoking post from 2017 delves into the ethical considerations surrounding design inspiration and originality within the independent watchmaking world. He examines the perceived similarities between an MB&F turtle automaton and an earlier piece by independent artisan Raul Pages, sparking a debate on attribution, innovation, and the 'unwritten rules' of homage among living artists. This discussion remains highly relevant for collectors navigating the nuanced landscape of horological creativity and collaboration.

So I've been spending way too much time lately on IG but it's better for my wallet than going to watch boutiques.  Yesterday, there was a little brouhaha that brewed up over a turtle automaton series released by Max Busser & Friends (MB&F).  The problem had to do with the fact that there was similarity to a blue turtle automaton made by someone else about 5 years ago, Raul Pages.  Both MB&F and Raul Pages have been covered on PuristSPro in the past.  The world of mechanical animals - automatons - is a strangely fascinating one and I'm not an expert in it.

I've never met either Busser or Pages and I don't own anything from either of them.  But I felt great sympathy for Mr. Pages because he is a small workshop guy who is apparently trying to do something he loves.  Max Busser is by all appearances one of the good guys, but let's be honest, he is the much bigger player here with decades of experience and economic resources gathered from working at JLC and Harry Winston and many contacts in the industry.

So I was disappointed to see MB&F's response (see below) that was threading a fine needle and made mention of the fact that (1) turtle automatons have been done by others; (2) Mr. Pages' automaton was a unique piece and cost overwhelmingly more than what their automatons represent.  I think it is disingenuous.  I don't think anyone with half a functioning brain is claiming that MB&F should not be allowed to do their version.  The history of horology is pretty much about every watchmaker re-using/re-discovering-/tinkering with what some dead watchmaker already did.  Give credit to MB&F for adding the hidden bird. 

But the visual similarity is disconcerting to me and Max Busser knew about Mr. Pages well before.  Look at the turtle automaton made by Asprey a few decades ago.  When Mr. Pages made his turtle, his version did not look anything like the Asprey one.  The point that a few of us are making to MB&F is that if you are going to come out with your take on something done by someone else living, then make it truly your own and let the other living artist have his/her due.  At minimum, they could have shown Mr. Pages some respect and not have done the blue color one.  I don't believe that MB&F is going to have trouble paying their rent & their payroll if they cannot sell 10 pieces of something.  Whereas it is likely a very big deal to Mr. Pages to get that kind of income.

We have this parallel in watches with the Gerald Genta designs (Royal Oak -> Nautilus -> GP -> Hublot -> Piaget) and the Rolex oyster case among the famous examples.  I feel there are grey areas of course.  When should the brand/manufacture completely avoid doing something that is a reproduction vs. an innovation?  When one person out of 10 tells the brand/manufacture it is a reproduction?  Or when 5 persons out of 10?



Raul Pages work, pic credit Quill and Pad




MB&F version, pic credit MB&F




pic credit MB&F




Asprey turtle from 1989, pic credit Sotheby's


MB&F response below








Mr. Raul Pages response below








Key Points from the Discussion

Advertisement
The Discussion
SP
Spangles - Dr. Tabby
Dec 12, 2017

Would make a good title. If they had given a nod to Mr. Pages, then that would have drawn interest to his work, making it a win for all, since they are not competing at price points, etc.

CA
cazalea
Dec 12, 2017

In my opinion, it’s not our problem to solve or our place to provoke. Pages made one, MB&F made ten, the designs are different, the legs are different, the singing bird animation ... etc. Cazalea

JO
Joepny
Dec 12, 2017

We hear about this scenario so often: (1) you see a watch you like and it’s made in a small qty and you buy it for various reasons; (2) another brand subsequently releases a similar style watch with a slight difference and it’s cheaper but more are made. There are at least two sides to every story: (a) watch lover in #1 is probably a little miffed that his watch is not so unique anymore; (2) watch buyer #2 is happy to get the nice style watch at a more affordable price. Usually as PuristS we don

PA
patrick_y
Dec 12, 2017

As a fan of automatons and having studied the history of automatons, I know that there are turtle/tortoise "tortue" automatons that date far back both of these. The example by Asprey is a fairly recent but beautiful example as I've personally seen some tortue automatons that are around an estimated 200 years of age. I applaud MB&F's response on social media of de-mystifying the tortoise automaton's origins and for providing FACTS that neither were the originator of the automaton tortue. I also a

FO
foversta
Dec 12, 2017

It is the reason why we are on Purists and not somewhere else. You are rising good questions. I have a lot of respect for Max and his team, I have a lot of respect for Raul. I know them both. I saw Raul's tortoise in March for the first time, I hope to see Max's one soon. Despite some aesthetic similarities (I would say that a tortoise remains a tortoise), I also find them very different. I feel the same about their behaviours what is the key point for an automaton. So for me, there is no specif

JO
Joepny
Dec 12, 2017

For sure I hope that Raul Pages finds a good outcome through this MB&F event. 👍 I like to root for the little guys more often than not.

Advertisement

Continue the conversation

This thread is active on the Horological Meandering forum with 17 replies. Share your knowledge with fellow collectors.

Join the Discussion →