Patek and the Grey Market

Feb 17, 2022,03:42 AM
 



Recently on Instagram I wrote a series of posts concerning Patek and the grey market. I put them together to share here. Hope you all enjoy. 


Some find it easy to place blame on Patek regarding the Grey Market issue. Through my journey with Patek, I don’t see those comments as reflective of the truth. Now it’s one thing to blindly take someone’s word at more than face value and another to see those words in action. When I go on holiday, I always try to find the time to pop into a watch store and have a chat. Once I was in a Rolex retailer that had some Patek stock in the window. I queried why only to find out they had lost their Patek dealership. Following on from that conversation they proceeded to show me a selection of limited editions and sought after models (Nautilus and the likes), some even dated few years ago. I came to learn this retailer had held back a lot of stock to sell on the grey market at market prices. Boldly and unashamedly they even mentioned how they used to sell to dealers. So it was absolutely no wonder why Patek withdrew their retailer status. It was one of the clearest demonstrations of Patek actively trying to deal with this unprecedented situation.


I have known Patek (first hand) to take part in mystery shopping to identify where flipped watches came from and blacklist the client. Further, they dedicate significant efforts to trawling the internet looking for “evidence”. However, Patek Philippe is a watchmaker first and foremost. They only have limited resources they can dedicate to the pursuit of flipped watches. They also expect a reasonable level of cooperation from their retailers. I think some questions rightfully should be raised when the first pieces of a “hot watch” allocated to VVIPs get resold. I also think a harsher line should be taken with ADs (even if they do close a few of them down). Yet it’s an impossible cat and mouse game that will probably never have a winner. Some clients and ADs masquerade under elaborate and sophisticated lies to help oil the wheels of the grey market machine. Knowing what’s what isn’t always clear cut. And this is all without even getting down to other issues such as justifiable reasons for resale. It’s an extremely difficult issue with no clear path. I felt it necessary to share my experiences for things are not always as they seem


Part I 





Earlier in summer I posted a 5712 with a caption defending Patek in their battle against the grey market. I pointed to real world examples of them taking action in different ways to highlight how they have a somewhat appropriate strategy for these challenging times. I also made note of how Patek is a watchmaker and not a horological police force which is worth remembering. Still they dedicate significant resources to combatting flippers. Of course Patek could improve their handling of how pieces are “flipped” (especially concerning AD punishment and KYC) yet in general I had positive experiences to share with their approach. From first hand accounts of ADs being closed to their mystery shopping tactics, certainly there is a coordinated response from the Maison. The response to these posts was incredible. However mixed in were some quite curious arguments. I have highlighted three points I’d like to address that I feel cover the general sentiments of those who disagreed with what I wrote. 1) Patek should increase production to match demand. 2) Patek should raise the RRP to market price. 3) Patek should abandon their ADs and adopt a boutique focused strategy. I will spend the next few posts arguing against these three points.


Part II 





I felt the response of “production should be increased to match demand” ignores the time it takes to train watchmakers, especially on the scale we are discussing. Moreover, to make such an extraordinary jump in production would mean Patek sacrificing several core principles. In the elusive book “Patek Philippe: The Values of a Family Watch Company”, Philippe Stern mentions how because of limited production, it “adds to the sense that, in owning a Patek Philippe, you possess something of rare value”. He goes further stating “in many ways the owners of our watches form an exclusive club”. Exclusivity and rarity were always a part of the Patek philosophy and in decimating this, not only would Patek undermine what they stand for, they would help evaporate demand. Rarity is part of the allure. Patek has always been stubborn in the best of ways. When the rest rushed to steel to make more affordable watches, Patek refused. They knew it would harm their value and identity. Patek has been concerned about safeguarding value for decades. Their magazine has a section dedicated to auction prices after all. Harming themselves and their customers in an attempt to restore some fanciful equilibrium would ultimately serve to the detriment of the company. It would cripple value and rarity and make demand remember forgotten miseries.


Raising supply to meet demand would open Pandora’s box to allow the Nautilus to dominate production. When the ramifications of this move are properly understood by the market, demand may drop until such watches are collecting dust on shelves and in the process would assist in destroying creativity and variety. The core of Patek would suffer while trends of a moment control production. Any creativity would be chained to market demand with no long term vision. So references like the 5070, unpopular for its time, would never have existed. Often the market knows not all. Time makes champions, not opinions of a moment. In short, raising production to meet demand would assassinate their varied catalogue, make the Nautilus the identity of the company and ultimately cripple value across the board.


“Rarity is the essence of art” - Philippe Stern.


Part III



The very early 1920s saw the Weimar Republic plagued with hyperinflation. Citizens would literally stuff seemingly endless notes into wheelbarrows just to afford a loaf of bread. Occasionally, by the time they arrived at the grocers, they would have to turn back to collect even more cash because the price had once again doubled. This is the image that springs to mind when I first heard the suggestion that Patek should set their RRPs to market price. If a client were very unlucky, by the time he got the call and was on his way to the store, he might leave empty handed because the price has moved yet again. It’s preposterous to support this idea. What metric would be used to determine market price? Especially for new releases, would it be a matter of guessing the market as opposed to RRPs that make sense for the company’s catalogue? How quickly would companies react to the changing market price - especially when it falls?


If we allowed the market to dictate RRPs then suddenly we would have some Nautilus variants selling for more than minute repeaters. This is disrespectful to the craft. Patek has a responsibility to protect tradition so to lower prices of calendars and some repeaters while raising prices of sports watches significantly is antithetical to their own philosophy. A minute repeater cannot and should not ever retail for less than a Nautilus. Patek has previously created pieces the market didn’t want but was later enormously appreciated. They didn’t follow trends of the time but rather boldly led the way by enacting their own vision with little regard to market behaviours. Markets fluctuate - Patek remains firm. If they were to exclusively follow the market then perhaps many great references, that struggled to find good homes before would never have been created.


It would be foolish to think Patek’s prices are based on intrinsic value of craftsmanship alone, their name certainly plays a part. Yet still we are left with RRPs that broadly demonstrate a sensical approach by the company. If fashion trends spawned by hype beasts and speculators dictated the RRPs for Patek, it would be a miserable state of affairs.


Part IV 




In 1854 Tiffany & Co placed an order for 150 watches from Patek to start their relationship. 1854. 150 watches. Momentous. In 1872 Patek and Gondolo & Labouriau established a relationship that at its height was responsible for selling roughly one third of all of Patek’s production. In fact, so successful was this relationship at establishing Patek’s presence in Brazil that the word “Patek” became a substitute for the noun “watch”. Incredible. These are just two examples from the early years of Patek’s history where ADs have played a pivotal role in the expansion of the Maison. Yet between then and now, an army of loyal (often family owned) ADs have retailed Patek’s catalogue through the good years and the bad. Through the crises and the gold rushes. It is an understanding of history, one filled with deep and meaningful partnerships, that has led in part to Patek’s refusal to opt for a boutique-only route.


Throughout the centuries, Patek has sought to expand their markets by partnering with local ADs who know their markets with great expertise. They have been pivotal in bringing the now renowned name of Patek Philippe far and wide. Patek celebrates this in the most grand of ways, with special editions to mark anniversaries of their respective partnerships. There is a clear understanding of history but most importantly loyalty. So when I am asked after my defence of Patek’s actions in the grey market, why they don’t abandon ADs in favour of a Patek owned distribution network, I can only ask, where is the loyalty in such an action? Patek expects loyalty from their customers not to sell and they expect loyalty from their ADs in purchasing stock. It would be antithetical to their own philosophy to abandon treasured partnerships simply because the times are good. I have dedicated numerous posts to the vast corruption that occurs within an AD network. Patek, where they can and with enough evidence, will close these ADs. And yes, more must be done but to turn their backs on the many superb ADs out there would be a great tragedy of ironies. More so for the family owned ADs that have spent time and resources to retail Patek and build a market.


Part V




















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This message has been edited by patrick_y on 2022-03-27 19:43:29


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Great post

 
 By: MilDiver : February 17th, 2022-04:35
Thank you for taking the time to share.

Thank you for the kind words! Glad you enjoyed :)

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : February 17th, 2022-17:24

Thank you Horology_Ancienne

 
 By: Gelato Monster : February 17th, 2022-04:44

Appreciate you!

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : February 17th, 2022-17:25

Fantastic 👍

 
 By: Rastro : February 17th, 2022-04:52
Thanks for your thoughtful, insightful, and honest post 😊

Thank you so much! Very appreciated!!

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : February 17th, 2022-17:25

Thanks my friend for a typically dense and compelling post on (the effects of) the current market situation, and on Patek's unique way to properly navigate it! ;-) A VERY complex matter, but you find me in agreement with all the main points you raised.

 
 By: FabR : February 17th, 2022-05:08
I was recently alerted to your IG posts, but since I don't have IG I confess I never got to read your thoughts before now. I'm sincerely glad you are posting them here, so let me very briefly chime in with my "stream of consciousness" as a reply to this t... 

It’s a pity we can’t find you on Instagram but happy we connected here.

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-14:42
Thank you for the kind words concerning my post. I deeply appreciate it. It has been nothing but joy in finding my feet on WPS! With your knowledge of Patek, it comes as no surprise to me that you have been mistaken as a mystery shopper haha!! If owned an... 

Good points, thanks for taking the time to share them

 
 By: takman : February 17th, 2022-05:27
Agreed that it is not as simple as raising prices or production, one has to look at the big picture and all the moving parts.

Thank you and always a pleasure

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-14:32
Glad we agree. There is no easy answer here

Always thought that there must be one Nautilus only

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : February 17th, 2022-06:08
Platinum and time only.

Astute and thought provoking as always !

 
 By: Time to watch : February 17th, 2022-06:20
Thanks for posting and sharing brother 🙏🏼

Thank you very much my dear friend

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-14:59

We have a choice, but we are all sheep

 
 By: xxcesar : February 17th, 2022-08:44
As a proud owner of 5711 and 5712, please let me take a counter position here. First of all thank you for your well written and elaborate post, mine will be neither I fear. Just felt the need to comment on a couple of points where I disagree. My view as a... 

Thank you for your points of rebuttal!

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-15:18
You do yourself a disservice - indeed it was well written and certainly thought provoking. Below I give my responses: As a customer: on this point we have no qualms. I agree with everything you’ve said and I hope my post was clear to show I do not believe... 

A few fragments of thought...

 
 By: MTR : February 17th, 2022-09:42
I really appreciate this thread and thank you for this, Horology_Ancienne! Your text is full of love for Patek and full of passion. The points you raised give food for thought and also open up some new perspectives. I'm currently quite tied to work, so ju... 

Thank you for the kind words Thomas - I spend more time than is healthy thinking about watches haha

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-15:37
1) 100% Patek is a company which will have financial goals and act as most companies do in many ways. However, the reason why I fell in love with Patek is because they so often say to hell with traditional company objectives in order to be romantic. A gre... 

Excellent points and viewpoints BUT have one question

 
 By: Patekfinity : February 17th, 2022-14:16
I completely agree and concur on all the points stated. There is one thing more that begs the question if Patek will embrace…that is the use of 21st century’s technology. I understand the core of Patek is tradition and following what has been done for yea... 

If the Patek holds the information privately that's completely counter to the notion of transparency through blockchain tech. I don't think PP is holding back, the application of blockchain here doesn't make sense.

 
 By: Fastwong : February 17th, 2022-15:47
Further, applying digital ledger technology is different than authentication tech for physical goods and is a whole other discussion of challenges and really only works today with unique items and proprietary technology which again, proprietary tech rules... 

Authentication exactly needed…

 
 By: Patekfinity : February 18th, 2022-12:15
Authentication is the key in determining not only valuation across products but also provenance to safeguard any buyer of goods. Current paperwork can easily be duplicated and there is no ledger of which the public can access to authenticate. Imagine havi... 

Fundamentally I think there is a misunderstanding between tracking (ledger) of a item and authentication (identification/verification of an item)

 
 By: Fastwong : February 18th, 2022-15:40
Let's walk through your scenario. Say someone brings in a Patek watch to a dealer to resell. How does one identify the watch to validate it against this "ledger"? SN#? Those can be changed/duplicated. NFC chip? Those can be copied and coded at home. The o... 

While I don't disagree with your words, this article is HEAVILY BIASED in favor of Patek Philippe...

 
 By: patrick_y : February 17th, 2022-20:49
I don't disagree with a word you've said, but you haven't come at this topic with a balanced approach. You've made your suggestions and mentioned all the "Pros" with your suggestion but haven't mentioned any of the "Cons." Those who've worked in the indus... 

If you say so...

 
 By: patrick_y : February 18th, 2022-16:46
I did cite a specific example to back up my words. Specifically I mentioned that there are no cons in the article and the article is written in a heavily biased manner. I may be the only person who thinks it's a heavily biased piece of text. And I may be ... 

Dear Patrick, I have to agree with you.

 
 By: MTR : February 18th, 2022-17:07
And I'm afraid you were right. At the beginning I appreciated this thread very much and welcomed it, hoping and enjoying that we would have an open minded, interesting discussion. In reality, however, it is so far a one-sided „PR essay“, where supplementa... 

Agree as well, this definitely feels very pro PP but hey, it's the PP forum and written by a PP fan/owner so I'm not sure I'd expect too much different

 
 By: Fastwong : February 18th, 2022-19:20
I appreciate the thoughts and the post from the perspective of a long time PP customer and I somewhat agree I guess my conclusion is different. It sounds like the conclusion of OPs thoughts are PP has done what they can within reason and so carry on, noth... 

You're right, this is a PP forum, and perhaps it shouldn't be that unusual to see a heavily biased in PP's favor article.

 
 By: patrick_y : February 18th, 2022-22:43
You bring up a good point here. As for your thoughts on how to improve the grey market situation... I agree your approach could work. But how about this... Let's say I'm a big customer at an AD. This AD sells me a lot of watches that I want. But occasiona... 

Interesting question.

 
 By: MTR : February 19th, 2022-19:34
„How can we change the attitude of those clients who are afraid to say No?“ IMHO: To achieve that you have to approach a different value system. Watches are not the most important things in the world. If I don't get something, it's not the end of the worl... 

It doesn't happen with me at my AD neither...

 
 By: patrick_y : February 19th, 2022-21:54
But this is a common question I get from big collectors. They're afraid to say NO. And since financially, they're not losing much money by buying a watch they don't want anyways, they're happy to say yes to be able to stay the top client and to continue g... 

Understandable

 
 By: MTR : February 20th, 2022-12:01
from their point of view. But at the end their “fear” and behavior encourage the seller. This vicious circle can only be broken if I can hold back sometimes and don't always have to have everything. But that is generally a basic problem in our time.

Your last sentence nailed it exactly...

 
 By: patrick_y : February 20th, 2022-18:02
We live in a world of "Fear of Missing Out" culture.

Dear Fastwong

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-15:43
I was careful not to give a final conclusion on the whole matter. As stated above (please see my response to Patrick for more details), this was written as a counter argument to popular points I’ve been hearing quite regularly. I mentioned this in my post... 

Thanks for your response! I don't frequent insta much so I wasn't aware where this was coming from and I haven't seen your equal criticism of PP, just as a PP fan your post made sense to me.

 
 By: Fastwong : March 25th, 2022-21:12
As far as loyalty, there's loyalty to AD's AND loyalty to end customers to consider. If a brand can do both, great, but when push comes to shove and ADs behave badly at the expense of the end customer, Patek has to choose. My point in outlining the differ... 

That's a good approach MTR! We should have a balanced discussion.

 
 By: patrick_y : February 18th, 2022-22:39
I hope we get some more opinions on how to solve this grey market problem. Ultimately, it's not a brand's job to police the industry (OP suggested this too, and I agree with the OP), and ultimately, the market decides what the price is. Unlike the stock m... 

All I am saying….

 
 By: KC_HK : February 20th, 2022-16:53
You need to offer your “Cons” to the post in what you believe it’s wrong with the OP. Simply saying “you don't know what you don't know” gives the readers and OP nothing to go on. Offer what you think and we can judge otherwise. I am never stated my stanc... 

Ahh, I see what you mean... (lengthy response)

 
 By: patrick_y : February 20th, 2022-18:00
I was going to type up an even longer response, but I'm going to keep it short. For those who want to absorb every word of the original poster, go right ahead. For those who didn't realize this was a heavily biased post, but after reading my post realize ... 

Here is my original thinking with this post.

 
 By: Horology_Ancienne : March 25th, 2022-15:49
Although extremely active and busy on Instagram which takes my time away from WPS , I have always been encouraged by our moderator GLau’s to share more on WPS, especially on important topics. Hence, I felt compelled to share this important matter with you... 

Hello Horology_Ancienne!

 
 By: patrick_y : March 25th, 2022-23:38
That's kind of the beauty about this site. One doesn't have to go into depth about their argument. They can state their prerogative as thoroughly or as shallowly as they desire. Of course, we would all like to see the reasoning behind an argument to make ... 

Patrick and HA - this site is different from Ig and the responses will be from a different cross section of collectors BUT

 
 By: watch-guy.com : March 26th, 2022-02:09
HA has some very valid points to make which may upset some members here, but the nature of the forum is such that various opposing views are always welcome and should be aired. I think it is difficult for Patrick in some circumstances to straddle the line... 

Definitely a different group on Instagram compared to WPS...

 
 By: patrick_y : March 26th, 2022-07:52
Just different strokes for different folks. On Instagram it's much more about consumer culture (not to mention Instagram, like Facebook, can be very show-off like) and on WatchProSite we're much more technical. We used to be even more technical, but writi... 

I have no clue why a “Moderator” is still bashing on the OP.

 
 By: KC_HK : March 27th, 2022-19:04
1. Claiming that the WPS is more than a “consumer culture” site, you must be kidding yourself. Look at the last 15-20 posts of the Patek forum. Do you see anything of substance, other than this post by HA? Why don’t you bring back the old glory of movemen... 

I already addressed this in a previous post...

 
 By: patrick_y : March 27th, 2022-19:15
I already addressed your response in a previous post. I'm not bashing on the OP. I even agreed with the OP. You never even responded to my response where I called out your false accusation of me "dissing" anyone. Again, why would I disagree with the OP if... 

Great post!

 
 By: Motty : February 18th, 2022-02:29
My humble opinion is as follows we will never be able to get rid of the gray market so long as people are willing to throw money at watches at any cost to show off or etc. And as long as people can make money, some people will capitalize on a relationship... 

An excellent and well-considered post as always.

 
 By: NoH : February 19th, 2022-08:36
Thank you for sharing your perspective here and on IG. All the very best, Niall

Thank you for your post, all makes sense by discontinuing the 5711 was a clear move and nothing else..

 
 By: christianch : February 19th, 2022-10:50
Scarcity of watches can happen for a number of reasons. Today even a Rolex is not as easy to get. I completely appreciate that scaling production to meet the demand of just 1 model is difficult and not in the best interest of many luxury watchmakers where... 

Excellent post, Christian!

 
 By: MTR : February 19th, 2022-12:13
„Why not discontinue what clients don't want and not the most popular model!” Well, I'm just a small watch collector and work in a completely different segment (IT). So there are certainly more qualified people to explain the background to us. I deal with... 

Thank you, some very interesting points that I didn't see👏

 
 By: christianch : February 19th, 2022-13:33
like ultimately increasing the value of the company and -- a very good point -- make everything so desirable that as soon as a watch is available, even from refeences that are usually not loved like the Golden Ellipse, there is immediate demand. Additiona... 

I don’t know, either.

 
 By: MTR : February 19th, 2022-15:50
What I know: the global amount of money is getting bigger and bigger and wants to be invested. And watches, like many other limited goods, are becoming more of an object of investment.

This is a most enlightening post.

 
 By: Rhyzen : February 19th, 2022-11:25
Thank you for sharing this with the community. I wholeheartedly agree with your excellent analysis of the situation.

Thank you

 
 By: CGJ0 : February 20th, 2022-19:38
I very much enjoyed your well thought out posts/arguments. The “extreme” answers are unlikely to be the right ones.

Thank you for this post. Unfortunately,...

 
 By: SRG : February 21st, 2022-04:14
some brands are abandoning their faithful dealers and going the way of the boutique. Very sad.

Agree, mostly?

 
 By: muttiboy : February 21st, 2022-05:13
I have no complaints about your synopsis. But, what about those of us who happen to have obtained a nautilus watch prior to the upsurge in pricing? Many years ago, I was eyeing the nautilus chronograph. It didn’t come to fruition. But, my wife bought me t... 

Well written report of the current market

 
 By: jon_jon : February 21st, 2022-18:57
It seems many of the comments about suffering an increase in production of sports watches or increasing price to meet market price and eliminating ADs are comments from those who are not familiar with Patak and it's history. AP is known to eliminate ADs i... 

Thank you H_A for spending the time to put this post on WPS !

 
 By: GLau : February 25th, 2022-14:00
Knowing that you are extremely busy on IG, I thank you sincerely on behalf of the forum for sharing your passion, knowledge and collection. Great that you explained out the history of AD partnerships which is an important point that defines the philosophy... 

Thank you!

 
 By: Shaytun : February 25th, 2022-21:32
Thanks for reposting this. I enjoyed reading the original post on IG. Your input is always well thought out and appreciated.

Alas,

 
 By: watch-er : February 27th, 2022-15:57
at some point most PP watches will come on the market at some point in time. Owners need to downsize or die with no heirs and the watches turn up at dealers or auctions. It is a laudable goal to attempt to sell new product to true end users, but with the ...