dr.kol
11333
One great post again!
First I thought I will not participate the discussion because it seems so easy to upset many...
To me it seems to be a fact that there are people who declare something as Iconic and this declaration gets then followers. Another phenomenon is that what is discontinued, turns better than the references the new one is replacing.
Let's discuss four Iconic references:
5110 was indeed a great reference when it was introduced. When it was replaced by 5130, many were disappointed. The new one was perhaps too big, the centre of the dial was not as nicely executed and the hands occupied quite a lot of space on the dial. In my opinion, and it is just mine, the new 5230 is a clear winner. Perfect balance on the dial, beautiful hands and a very sober case design. At least my primary World Time will be 5230P when it will be introduced. And hopefully not with blue centre - blue is too common nowadays.
5070, especially 5070P has been praised. We have to remember that this reference was not a wanted one when the it was introduced. A non-inhouse movement, big 42 mm size, a very small movement compared to the case size. The new 5170 changed everything. An average sized case, fantastic in-house movement and a very sober understated case. Technically 5170 is superior. I also find the dial of 5170P much more interesting than the one of 5070P. Just those diamonds in 5170P...
One executive of Patek has said me two times as his advice: "Get all versions of 5170. One day it will be in high demand and people will understand that this understated watch is very much pure Patek style".
5970 with its small movement and microscopic day-night and leap year indicators can't really compete with the new 5270. The new version is technically so much more sophisticated and even many of us do not like the "holes" on the dial, let's admit the fact that the data is easier to read from 5270 than 5970. Let's wait and see how the future 5270P will look like.
3940 is one of the iconic references. I like it much more than the newer 5140 even the size was increased from smallish 36 mm to 37.2 mm. At the same time the text on the new dial was much bigger make it less sober than the old one had. But then came the new 5327. It has a much wanted size of 39 mm and fantastic Breguet numbers. I still find the style of 3940 more attractive but in my books 5327 is a clear winner. However, the movement starts to be a bit small for the case... Why do we not speak more about 5496P. A fantastic dial, reliable and bigger movement, retrograde date, second hand...
Often Patek is accused for using "old and too small movements" for the case. At the same time practically never modern GP is accused for the same.
My feeling is that in general the collection of Patek Philippe is developing in a natural way. They answer to today's requests by enlarging the sizes of their watches. Some of the greatest ever references like 5370P, 5374P and the new 5372P are recent developments. And many current references which are not in high demand just now, will get the iconic status.
Finally, the new NY Special Edition 5531R took the "standard" Minute Repeater to a new level. A Minute Repeater with World Time having an enamel centred dial is something absolutely fantastic. I was looking at the watches for long periods in NYC and they have it all. I can't wait to see and feel the future 5531P as long as diamonds are not placed to the dial.
Just my thoughts.
Best, Kari
Available on the marketplace
Thoughts about the influence of successful references
Hi everyone, I posted some thoughts lately on Baron's 5070 vs 5970 thread and maybe this wasn't the best place to put it (sorry Joe), so I copy it here and take it off his post (I'll add the first answers here as well). This is a little provocative but pl...
The past
People relish objects from the past because you cannot get new I guess. I personally like the references mentioned and think they represent the best of Patek DNA.
This is indeed an interesting point
I imagine it talks to what we've been shaped by, our experience, what we've seen etc... I totally agree on your last comment. I would say that today they are what many will answer first and what matters is to find someting that really appeals to us. Time ...
Miles, dom,
I guess Miles this is indeed natural, imperfection can been seen as charming or unique or like a flaw depending on the subject. I see in your path quite similar elements with what many I think have known (especially as you are now proud owner of this 5970...
Mark, I would like to focus on one issue presented in your thought provoking and intellectually stimulating post.
If a high volume of an otherwise fantastic watch is produced, does that fact alone diminish (or even eliminate) the appreciation of and desire to own that watch? The answer for me is "yes" both regarding both the appreciation and desire elements. Yes, I c...
I think the same
It is always quite difficult to know where we stand. We know what we like in a watch, trying to remain objective and factual but the feeling or rarity definitely plays a positive role (little or big depending on each one). I feel exactly the same as you d...
You made a great point in Baron's thread initially.
And I am glad you turned your comment into a separate post. Your argument is valid. We will have to see how people feel about the 5270 and 5170 sometime down the road. I do see more than a few posts here from people who are fully appreciative of the newer...
I noticed the same indeed
About sizes, aesthetics, proportions etc... I see indeed quite many remarks about these elements too and this can shead a light over brand's strategies today. I had a thought about the 5170 lately: we often would like to see references looking more like t...
I am with you on this one Mark in Paris.....
you like the one you're lucky to own in my opinion. The current collection is equally beautiful . Best Regards Edward
Indeed, with time I feel I'm still very attracted by the 5712
This is quite a satisfactory feeling, that I didn't keep with all my previous watches. Not a real judgement on the watches, just the fact that some elements have changed in my likings. I also think that the current collection has many references to be att...
It is all about watches, not rarity, in my opinion.
Rarity is relative... If one million people want the same watch which has been produced in 10 000 pieces, this is a rare piece. Now, if only 100 people want a watch which has been made in 1000 pieces, this is not a rare watch. It is all about the watch. T...
I totally agree
A way to avoid mistakes is to really focus on the watch itself. Its details are what we will be enjoying or not when we will be wearing it. Even if it is sometimes hard to ignore what comes around brands and models, and I imagine it is part of the charm t...
Yes, I remember the 5712 but you had a 5980 as well didn't you?
I see your great interest for the 5960A. I'll be glad to see when you take the plunge whatever your choice is. We'll have many Volvo shots Best, Mark
Totally agree...
But as a collector should you really care about what others say about a watch. If you like it that should be enough ;-) I see that there is a great love for the nautilus collection in this forum which i respect but i must say I wouldn't dream of buying on...
Indeed Fram and I think that this is the difficulty!
Especially as we don't all have the knowledge and background in watches to determine what is good and what is not. I remember some watches or brands I was looking at when I started and I'm happy I didn't get them :p However, I didn't know this back then. ...
A very thought provoking post Mark.
I consider the watches you posted to be classics, but I also love modern Pateks. I find it frustrating when I read comments like Patek has now lost its way. There are countless Pateks from the Thierry era that I would love to own - 5990, 5524, 5930, 5905,...
I agree....I am bemused when I hear comments in how lazy PP is for not making movements for specific case sizes and how wonderful Lange is!! The 5524 Bey g one criticized for too small case....
Then we get the "iconic" 5070 with the smallest movement to case size and everyone think it's just great and gets weak at the knees!! Give me a 5170 any day!!! Sophisticated, low profile understated elegance
That imho emphasized how much different we are all
and how we see each references. The ones that would please us the most are not always the ones we see most or think of at first. But I think that flaws are not seen the same way, depending on how we like a watch at first and how we can get used to or enjo...
I love them both too
And I can even add some vintage models, even though it is quite new for me and that I don't like a lot of models yet. I must say that I agree with you and that I think that most of Patek's novelties are going a different but good way. We still have the ch...
Thank you Mark for your post!
I agree with all the points you made. We always believed taste is a highly subjective thing. What we don't realised is we are influenced by others (opinion leaders or other watch fellows) everyday. As an owner of 5110. I have to say that I fell in love wi...
You're perfectly right
and I must say, concerning the 5110R that I didn't pay much attention to it until I tried the one of a fellow purist. Influence is part of all what is linked with design and aesthetical matters. Our tastes are all influenced by our experience. Hence, I fo...
Hi mark
A most intriguing and interesting thread 1. It is to be expected that tastes change and todays favourites may not be this which collectors desire in 10 or 20 years We vcan see this with bubble backs , Princes and even the highly desired 3970 have fallen o...
Indeed Julian
Standards evolve through decades and some watches' success might evolve likewise. I say "might" as some can remain. As you emphasize it, it is a lot about normal human liking and how we come to appreciate things (or not) over time. The vintage collecting ...
I happen to agree with all your points Mark
when I began my journey through the fantastic world of watches. I wanted so bad a green bezel Submariner, it was back in 2009. A friend of mine conviced the watch was nor beautiful or a keeper for the upcoming years. He was quite a visionnary? The fact is...
Your example is indeed something most of us I imagine have experienced at the beginning
and I must say that what I presented in my original post (getting some distance to have a more global view on the market, allowing people to have access to a wider diversity of watches without being scared to make mistakes and being able to find what real...
Mark brilliant as always.
You nail it every time. Glad you mention the 5960p. I've been banging on about this watch for years. Here is a pic of The Good , The even better and the Ugly...... I let you decide which is which. All the best. M. You ...
From left to right....
5960, 5970, 5070, Beauties. Congratulations Miles_151, Best Regards Edward
Well done Edward. You got Ugly.
Thank God you didn't say middle one đŸ˜‰ Have a great weekend. It's so Ugly it's beautiful. M.
This is a diversification I like a lot
You have in terms of design and complications such different watches. I'm glad as a 5970 and 5070 owner you appreciated the thread and I don't think we will have enough of these pics! Enjoy your watches Miles and thank you for your kindness Best, Mark
Great thoughts!
I am sure that nowadays the only real thing that watch world lacks is criticism. People blindly praise some watches (like the references you mentioned) or give a positive nod to all other watches. The truth is that lots of expensive watches including PPs ...
I think it is difficult indeed
especially since it is also a lot about subjective elements (not only but they have a significant place in this field). Hence, prices, finishing, reliability (based on statistics or on the post we might see on forums and so on) are really difficult issues...
Wow.
You got some serious platinum Chronos is a wearing them in the best of health. Best, Ahmed
This picture is one of the most appealing
Modern and new references, all traditional watchmaking at best Best, Mark
Sometimes...
I really wonder why we do not see more disparity here. For example I would really love to see the 5230g or the 5396g with the beautiful slate grey dial in the wild. Either I am the only one who like them or they are so rare, that nobody get them...
I see this quite often, even elsewhere
Some references that watch fans share on forums come more frequently than others. What you emphasize is exactly the purpose of my post. Not that it is bad, as people should of course get what they prefer and also that those models have something beautiful...
I am late to the thread...
But methinks your points are really interesting. I have a really good feeling that many years down the road (20 to 30 yrs later), people would start hunting for current Patek references just like what people are doing for earlier references. It is a vicio...
Indeed, when we take some distance, things look different
When we try to observe today the 1970's-1980's, then the 1990's-2000's, we can see different styles of watches and that things change. Some models "improve" and are even more appreciated and some a little less. In the 1930's-1960's period there are icons ...
Great post Mark!
When I was looking for my first Patek, the 6000g wasn't even on my shortlist. I hardly saw any pictures of it online - other icons like the Nautilus, worldtimers, ACs and PCs dominated the spotlight. This was until I saw one in the metal. I fell in love i...
This is indeed an element I wished to underline
As we are all looking for pleasure in watches, it is in our own interest to widen our experience. It is the same in other fields but the more we focus on a small number of pieces, the more we narrow the chances to enjoy something else. This is something t...
One great post again!
First I thought I will not participate the discussion because it seems so easy to upset many... To me it seems to be a fact that there are people who declare something as Iconic and this declaration gets then followers. Another phenomenon is that what is ...
Technology typically advances......
......yet watches are as much art as they are science. Perhaps more art than science at this level. It is always easy to argue that the most technologically advanced development is superior. Yet...... .....they don't make Picassos like they used to. Genui...
i have no issues at all...like you say we can all have personal views etc etc.....just making the observation that....
.....X is better than y is a never-ending and circular argument based on assumptions that are impossible to validate. And also...that they don't make Picassos like they used to....
indeed...that is correct....
....its discussed all the time. And there can never be a resolution. That is why I think its pointless. We both love 5370P. Great...all that proves is that we agree on this. We differ on our view on 5960A......no way of determining right or wrong because ...
True. But Picasso is dead, Patek Philippe is very alive
as 5370P proves. I love my 5960 but I'm never claiming that it would be an iconic reference - just the right one for my daily wear. Best, Kari
Three things.....
....Picasso is very much alive. He continues to live through his art. ....Patek Philippe is very much alive....It continues to live through its art....both present and future. I never used the word iconic....just the analysis that any model that attempts ...
I think this is a pointless argument.
I can naturally avoid expressing my own ideas and preferences if it makes life easier. And I have never claimed that my personal opinion would be the right one. In fact I have pretty bad taste. Best, Kari
Not at all....
.....like i said in previous post, hearing what you think about a reference you love is great. It is where the forum adds so much.
Indeed, diversity and curiosity will serve our passion even more
Thanks for taking the time to write your thoughts on this matter. This is a wide subject and I was more particularly emphasizing the fact that (like in any other fileds, and not only aesthetical ones) the more we talk and focus on a few actors and the mor...