F.P. Journe

Discuss ...

[Instructions may be found by clicking here]

Fill in for Marie Antoinette and her ill-fated lover?

A

To answer that question we need to know who has been ordering Grand Sonneries from F.P.Journe!

 

And if history repeats, Mr Journe will manage too slip out the back door when the revolution comes.

 

A

that if Abraham Louis Breguet were alive today he would be inventing intersellar spacecraft.  I think that François-Paul JOURNE is on the same level and thankfully we are all alive to witness and benefit from his inventions. These are good times indeed 

No message body

was there ever a Breguet razor?!
A

That's not fair...I intentionally avoided to mention it...

please explain....

thanks

cheers

razor??

cheers

It was his post, and he's clearly trying to forget it
A

No message body

... for that little stunt, Nico!

There's always one in every classroom.

And for future historians, here is the link to the Razor Centi Graph: click here

Hi Nicolas. Not sure who said this, but the similarities between Breguet and Journe are bandied about occasionally.

I am interested in your comments one way or the other. You can approach it from any direction you like: watch design, business approach, comparison with other manufactures, horological position, family background, horological education, etc....

At the very least it might give FPJ a smile!

A

Invenit ...What did FPJ invenit?

I'm really surprised that we could compare FPJ to Mr BREGUET.

Mr Journe revisits Horology, like the Double Resonnance, when Mr Breguet invented.

I find this a bit pretentious, to say all.

I would not pronounce myself on the " Fecit " part...



Best,

Nicolas

Perhaps he will get a laugh rather than a smile, Nicolas? It will not be Mr Journe comparing himself with Mr Breguet (see also Marcel’s comment above) but rather, I suspect, journalists and enthusiastic salesmen!

 

Invenit et Fecit ” (Latin: invented and made) apparently relates to inscriptions on pocket watches produced by French horologers when their movements were recognised as original by the Royal Academy of Sciences. Precisely how “original” these movements had to be to be so anointed I am not aware (but would be pleased if the horological historians amongst us could expand). But on the surface, the use of this inscription is another nice historical nod. How much it is based in reality is open to discussion.

 

The invention issue makes me ponder the question of what is left in horology to invent. Are we just seeing deckchairs being moved around now? Sure, there are new materials, new combinations of complications, variations on themes, such as multi-axis tourbillons etc., but have we pushed mechanical systems about as far as they can go? What will come next? Will we be happy to see (unholy) mechanical-electronic hybrids that combine the best of both worlds, or will we hang on to traditional horological (mechanical) values? But I digress …

I have in the back of my head that Journe invented some useful, if nearly invisible, refinements of the repeater structure for his Grand Sonnerie. So perhaps not "Invent et Fecit" but "Améliorer et Fecit"
A

I am not here to incite a forensic debate. I'm sure there are forensic experts who will find faults with my reasoning if I got into them, so I will avoid mentioning them.

I have tremendous respect for F.P. Journe, I greatly respect his pieces, I've been to some of his boutiques, I've even met Monseuir Journe. However, it is in my opinion that F.P. Journe is not at all the modern day A.L. Breguet, and that they are entirely two different kinds of people.

Breguet is a pioneer who developed a large amount of technology from scratch, whereas F.P. Journe is really a person who is continuing parts of Breguet's work and improving upon it. Imagine a renaissance of Breguet's work, but no actual new tremendously major inventions.

To compare Breguet and Journe would almost be similar to comparing a great spiritual figure from history to a leader of that spiritual group in the present time.

As always, perfectly said.

Best,

Nicolas

Thanks Patrick, always interesting to read your thoughts. In some ways it is unfair to compare any modern individual with historical figures as history fills in so many relational details.

 

The impression I get is that A.L. Breguet was innovative in his watchmaking (self winding mechanisms, parachute shock protection, constant force escapement, overcoil, gongs for minute repeaters, wrist watches, and of course the tourbillon), aesthetics (offset dials, unique hands, numerals, etc) and business practices.

 

Where I do see similarities are that both the watches of F.P. Journe and A.L. Breguet rely on the vision of one individual. Both these men’s watches have a distinct design aesthetic. You can argue, correctly, that ALB was more innovative in his mechanical engineering, but I think it is hard to go back to this golden age of horological invention. Personally I am content to see reimagining and reinvention from my horological companies if it brings a new way of looking at time and new and interesting designs.

 

Andrew

Or, more accurately put, I admire and respect his watches, and also respect what I know of his approach to watchmaking.   The Essay question is frustrating, however,  because IMO it invites criticism of Journe, who of course is not the modern Breguet, as the modern Breguet does not (and perhaps cannot) exist in the purely mechanical horological world (though I suppose I must admit I'm not particularly qualified to make that statement and welcome correction from someone more learned).  Patrick touched on this, and I agree with the sentiment he expressed.

Best,

CaliforniaJed

Hi Jed,

 

Thanks for your candid comments. Of course my intention is always to promote interesting discussion and not unnecessary or undue criticism.

 

The link between ALB and FPJ has been alluded to previously by others, but I don’t believe critically examined in any forum. So my intention was to tease out what similarities and differences there are in the men, their companies, and the watches they produce(d). As they were (are) both men of their times, there are limits as to how far this can be taken. The weight of history sits on Breguet’s shoulders, adding another layer of complexity.

 

I was also hoping to learn a little more about ALB’s business practices and approach. He is said to have been a very shrewd businessman, steering his company through some tumultuous times in history. I think the Journe Company has also trodden an interesting road of independence and vertical integration on many levels, including the use of Boutiques, over the last decade.

 

In retrospect I should have asked this as a “Hypothetical” rather than an “Essay Question”. The thread was worth it, however, to draw out Marcel’s quote from FPJ: “… if Abraham Louis Breguet were alive today he would be inventing interstellar spacecraft”.

 

Kind regards as always,

 

Andrew

Andrew, I don't know enough about either man's business practices to comment, and I was perhaps to quick to limit the question to one of horological invention.

I agree that Marcel's quote was a marvelous one!

Best,

CaliforniaJed

.... although I am SO biased. Anyway. As already stated there are clear parallels in a single individual creating a strong brand identity and aesthetics and staying true to himself and his vision through a period of long success. Designing the movements himself not by committee or outsourcing. Also a tendency to not rest on his laurels but keep developing the vision further, such as retiring the first commercial version of the tourbillon and replacing it by the current version with the seconde morte, or now with the Resonance.

Although I not really qualified I would be very surprised if Journe would really not be, by a judgement of experts, a creative inventor as well. His watches have regularly fetched numerous prizes as major achievements by juries of his peers (Grand Prix d'Horlogerie etc). Just as in most culture creation happens in the context of what went before the balance shifts from creation to (containing a component of) re-interpretation.

At least for the Resonance, which I have recently spent some time trying to understand and more fully appreciate, I believe this to be a major achievement in terms of invention and no just a re-creation. It is true that Huygens discovered Resonance in clocks and that Janvier and Breguet made Resonance clocks but to manage to do this in a production watch is a different thing, not just a recreation (in fact if our recent discussion is correct it may be a different physical principle in that air is the linking medium).

The most electrifying thing about the Journes for me, and that is entirely subjective but but very strong emotionally, is that they DO link back to Breguet and the 18th (and since they link back they are "less creative" than Breguet himself) but recreate some of the "spirit" of that time in a forward-looking way that I find merits the comparison.

Best

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

 

Thanks for these thoughts. I don’t mind biased opinions! Particularly when mixed with thoughtful commentary; that’s where the passion comes in.

And I completely agree with you about the emotion that Journe watches generate. I have seen the designs described as “retro-futurism” and to my eyes they fit comfortably in the Steampunk ‘movement’.

Whatever Journe is channelling, it is precisely this link with the past, firmly rooted in the modern day that I love.

Kind regards

Andrew

I believe the ultimate comparaison between Abraham Louis Breguet et François-Paul Journe is a work in progress and that the historical interest will certainly be a subject of serious historical interest after we are all dust, but at minimum it should prove a subject worthy of serious inquiry.  Un vaste programmme en termes francais.  My only thought is that this time, we are all fortunate enough to be able to participate in the discussion live and in real time.  As I said, I humbly believe these are good times

Putting sympathetic movements into a wrist watch may not count as an "invention" but FPJ aficionados admire it for the spirit, the different approach to achieving better accuracy without a multi-axis tourbillon and well, for being just plain beautiful to look at. As the others have said, comparisons like thee are inherently difficult at best and I don't think Journe would put himself in direct comparison with ALB. Regarding "invenit", I would not presume to know whether Journe truly believes everything he does is novel but he doesn't strike me as pretentious and self promoting as some contemporary artists who are still living.