Comments:
Machine finishing VS hand finishing VS fully hand finished
Hello
I am doing some research on this topic, and I could not find a comprehensive guide that explains the agreed upon basics.
From what I have gathered, machine finishing implies that automation was used to treat the movement parts to a desired level.
Hand finished seems to mean that machines where used then traditional hand finishing using traditional tools where used to overcome the limitations of hand finishing.
Fully hand finished such as a Dufour or Patek 5204 or Greubel is when only traditional tools where used from the get go, resulting in what is considered the finest quality.
If that is accurate, what exactly are the tools used for each and how would you be able to differentiate using a loupe?
More so, can we state some examples movements that clearly show the difference with images? That would be fantastic!!!
I am doing some research on this topic, and I could not find a comprehensive guide that explains the agreed upon basics.
From what I have gathered, machine finishing implies that automation was used to treat the movement parts to a desired level.
Hand finished seems to mean that machines where used then traditional hand finishing using traditional tools where used to overcome the limitations of hand finishing.
Fully hand finished such as a Dufour or Patek 5204 or Greubel is when only traditional tools where used from the get go, resulting in what is considered the finest quality.
If that is accurate, what exactly are the tools used for each and how would you be able to differentiate using a loupe?
More so, can we state some examples movements that clearly show the difference with images? That would be fantastic!!!
One of the best ways of spotting true hand finishing is observing the bevelling of the bridges
If the anglage is mirror polished, without marks, and rounded then you are dealing with hand finishing. What's even more impressive is when two bevels meet to form an interior angle or exterior point. It takes a lot more time for a watchmaker to file interior angles compared to the rest of the anglage process.
Patek 5236: hand finished, but you can see how they skimped on the interior angles in the finger train.
A much better finished patek minute repeater tourbillon: 9 interior angles, 8 on the tourbillon bridge and one on the bridge supporting the beautiful gold wheel
Patek 5236: hand finished, but you can see how they skimped on the interior angles in the finger train.
A much better finished patek minute repeater tourbillon: 9 interior angles, 8 on the tourbillon bridge and one on the bridge supporting the beautiful gold wheel
Most highest end would be hand finished by that standard, only a very few would be fully hand finished
The GF Hand Made 1, but not other GF, for example.
Dufour is wonderful, but the movement plates are cut by machine by a third party vendor, then finished, so not sure how that really falls.
Dufour is wonderful, but the movement plates are cut by machine by a third party vendor, then finished, so not sure how that really falls.
Yeah, I think the GF Hand Made 1 is in a league of it's own there. I can't think of anyone not using cnc and modern equipment to rough out most parts. That said, I've been thinking about this lately since there's all sorts of nuance in this.
I was comparing the new Ferdinand Berthoud FB3 with the GF Signature 1 recently and it was really interesting to have them side by side. FB proudly say that all of their components are finished by hand. The frosted dial for example is sand blasted with real sand by hand. But is that hand finished? The GF frosting on the other hand is executed with a wire brush. The end results of both techniques are honestly close, but operating a media blaster doesn't involve quite the same handwork as an even wire brush frosting. But lets say they are both "hand finished", if we move on to the sub seconds hand, on the FB it is evenly blasted but on the GF it is silvered on it's top, mirror polished around the sides, and engine turned on it's base. So, here both are hand finished but the decoration of one is clearly more time, labor and skill intensive than the other, so more decoration. But does more mean superior? Sometimes more and better got confused. More angles, more black polish, more decorative flourishes, I think sometimes people say that means the movement is "better" finished but is it or is it just more decorated? If one angle from a brand is deeper and sharper than another, is it better or just style? Further, I think that movement architecture also needs to be considered, for example the FB3 is the more complex watch, more parts, more wheels, more jewels, and more individual finger bridges and angles. There's just more linear mm and angles to decorate on that watch vs the GF. They could have taken a different approach and used a backplate instead of finger bridges but they didn't so should we consider that better finished than a movement that's been more intentionally simplified even if the quality of the finishing is similar?
On one hand I think finishing is overblown and on the other I think it's an important discussion that needs more nuance and transparency, especially in a time when big group brands are looking to maximize profits often at the expense of hand finishing. I think there's a good conversation to be had with watches about how much of their movements are machine vs hand finished and then at some point when a brand claims their watches are 100% hand finished, to dive deeper into what that really means. Less so I think to say something is better or worse than something else but more so that when people are spending serious bucks on a watch, they really know what they are getting.
On one hand I think finishing is overblown and on the other I think it's an important discussion that needs more nuance and transparency, especially in a time when big group brands are looking to maximize profits often at the expense of hand finishing. I think there's a good conversation to be had with watches about how much of their movements are machine vs hand finished and then at some point when a brand claims their watches are 100% hand finished, to dive deeper into what that really means. Less so I think to say something is better or worse than something else but more so that when people are spending serious bucks on a watch, they really know what they are getting.
These are very well thought out and articulated points!
You're right there is a lot of nuance, and I agree that finishing is both way over emphasized and also in need of better understanding from collectors.
I came to watchtime on Sunday and got to try on the FB3. It was very nice.
Roland at RGM was super nice to talk to and Kari Voutilainen is always a gentleman.
