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Exam question...

 
 By: pplater : July 22nd, 2021-13:21
Can anything other than a Patek be called a ‘Calatrava’?
Explain your answer. 
🧐

Cheers,
pplater. 

it depends what you're looking for....

 
 By: mahesh : July 22nd, 2021-13:28
Santiago Calatrava use the same 'logo' as an architect  & he don't build normal structures either ;-)

Right

 
 By: brauner : July 22nd, 2021-14:09

Okayyyyyy, fair call...

 
 By: pplater : July 22nd, 2021-14:41
Let’s bring it back to watches. Is any brand other than Patek reasonably entitled to describe their watches as ‘calatrava’?
Cheers,
pplater.

Vacheron?

 
 By: amanico : July 22nd, 2021-14:45

And..?

 
 By: pplater : July 22nd, 2021-15:00

Longines has a Calatrava watch if my memory serves me well..

 
 By: Pun : July 22nd, 2021-15:49

I cannot remember, but I think there was something between Vacheron and Patek about the use of these symbols.

 
 By: amanico : July 22nd, 2021-16:10

No it can’t be

 
 By: CastorKrieg : July 22nd, 2021-15:48
It’s not only a watch name, but Calatrava logo is at the same time the logo of Patek Philippe.

Yes and no

 
 By: vitalsigns : July 22nd, 2021-16:15
"A" Calatrava, no, as that means to me only Patek, demonstrated by the Calatrava cross and Patek's use of the name to refer to specific watches over many decades.

"Calatrava-style" watches, ok, since that style proliferated at least as early as the 1950s, and Patek wasn't the only one making them (or perhaps even the first). The Calatrava-style seems to have entered the public domain of design cues.

But when referring to "a Calatrava"--that can only be Patek.

Cheers,
John

Yes, and here are ten quick examples of NON-Patek watches currently being called Calatrava

 
 By: cazalea : July 22nd, 2021-18:57
UNIVERSAL GENEVE



OMEGA




ETERNA


GLYCINE



JAEGER LE COULTRE


LONGINES



WITTNAUER



ZENITH


CARTIER



MINERVA


I could go on.

Let's just say that Facial Tissues are generally called Kleenex, as in "Get me a Kleenex, I'm gonna sneeze"

... and in another example Costco just settled a major lawsuit from Tiffany WITHOUT PREJUDICE for calling their non-Tiffany rings TIFFANY:

Reuters July 19,2021

Tiffany & Co has ended its more than 8-year-old lawsuit accusing Costco of trademark infringement and counterfeiting for selling generic diamond engagement rings bearing the “Tiffany” name.

Lawyers for the companies on Monday filed a stipulation dismissing the case with the US District Court in Manhattan.

The dismissal came after a federal appeals court in August threw out a $21 million judgment that Tiffany, acquired in January by French luxury goods company LVMH, won in 2017 following a jury trial.

A trial judge had found Costco liable for selling the disputed rings, despite its claim that “Tiffany” had become a generic term and described the rings’ pronged setting. That left jurors to decide only how much Tiffany should recover.

But the appeals court said Costco acted in good faith, and that Costco customers were smart enough to realize Tiffany didn’t make or endorse the warehouse chain’s “Tiffany” rings.


And yes, I used to file copyright, TradeMark and patent applications for my company, and I do understand copyright law. But this is the "real world" and not a courtroom, so IMHO call it whatever you want.

Cheers,

Cazalea
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So, in context, does this mean...

 
 By: pplater : July 23rd, 2021-07:58
...that Patek’s Calatrava is Tiffany and your ten examples (plus others) are Costco? Put another way: Patek is the OG and the others get away with it because it’s the real world. Which would not be entirely unreasonable, if the proprietary use has been overtaken by common usage. As you say: much like Kleenex, Hoover, Jeep, Durex, Scotch Tape etc etc. You can’t help but think, though, that many brands would be thrilled for their name to be the by-word for a product. That may not always be the case.
Cheers,
pplater.
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I would say there is a "Calatrava watch style" and a company that early on chose to use "the name Calatrava" for some of their watches

 
 By: cazalea : July 23rd, 2021-12:52
It harms no one to use the word as it has evolved over the last century evolved in two aspects:

- as a Style including a simple case, straight lugs, time-only, dressy, often precious metal, plain or sector dial, usually on a strap, from many many Swiss brands

and 

- as a single brand's Model Line of such watches
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We are in ‘furious agreement’, Mike! :-)…

 
 By: pplater : July 23rd, 2021-14:05
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I understand Costco sells Hermes bag in some region. So I would get the impression I be buying a Tiffany & Co if I step into Costco branch that sells high value product.

 
 By: iceheller : July 24th, 2021-12:08
It a good point/example you made.
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I've actually pondered this question numerous times, wondering if it's a style or a certain PP model. Great question ... and I hope your asking it helps me figure it out. :-)

 
 By: InDebtButOnTime : July 23rd, 2021-00:12
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My uneducated opinion based on zero research…

 
 By: pejp : July 25th, 2021-03:01
I always thought that the true Calatrava was Patek, but the word Calatrava was used as a kind of shorthand to describe a certain style of vintage dress watch, often with sub-seconds. I wouldn’t call anything other than a Patek a ‘Calatrava’ but when other watches are called that, I get what they mean.
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