Independents

Bernard's latest post has reminded me to ask a question - who manufactures the base movement/plates for the Dufour Simplicity?  Does anyone know if the same company supplies base movement/plates for the Ferrier double spiral tourbillion?

suspicions so I won't spread them.
But in general there is not a lot of love between the companies in the Vallée de Joux and those in Geneva.
(the Geneva Seal was initially made to marginalise the companies in the Vallée)
There are many candidate companies who could be making those parts and I bet that Ferrier has someone in Geneva and Dufour has someone in the Vallée de Joux.
Don

who knew of these obscure rivalries?? Thanks Don.

Dufour made his entire movement in-house base up.  Doesn;t detract from his great finishing though.

He doesn't have a CNC machine he has someone cut the plates and bridges for him

... just heard from someone who asked the question and the answer from Mr. D was "yes".  If I am wrong, I am sorry in advance, but I am pretty sure that I heard it right - but still I didn't hear it directly from the man.....  Having said that, everyone gets "hint" from the historical pieces, thus the technology advances, so I have nothing against it.

Ken

The Geneva seal was not made to aleniate the makers from the Vallée who had been supplying movement blanks to the Genevan houses for years but rather to fight cheeper counterfeits with Geneve on the dial as a sales pitch but which were not made in Geneva

and along the lines that the Geneva movement makers were complaining that most of the high end movements sold by Geneven watch companies were actually made in the VdJ.  So to protect themselves they invented the Geneva Seal.

Don

 

This message has been edited by DonCorson on 2011-05-20 05:41:59

Hi Don,
I'm sure it would be hard to find a real b/w truth here, but my impressions are more along the line of what Alex wrote above.
There were very few Geneva based movement suppliers - the large majority of movement blanks (ebauches) were supplied from the VdJ .
The Geneva seal rules don't limit this supply from outside Geneva in any way - so this wouldn't help the Geneva based movemet producers at all....

I believe the Geneva seal  was a protective measure - but mainly because the original movement producers of the VdJ started to realize,
that a cased movement (i.e. a complete watch) makes up for a mutch better profit than selling ebauches only. 

As a side note - that's also the reason you'll find an impressive amount of case makers in Geneva - by far with larger capacities than movement production
ever has been (in Geneva). It's very simple - because movements (the much more labour intensive part in the past) were always bought in from the VdJ where man hours were
much cheaper in the past, especially in winter time.

best regards
Suitbert

very interesting and informative.

Thanks everyone for your informative responses. Lots of background information here - actually quite interesting. I wonder if the movement blank manufacturers for Dufour or Ferrier leave a little mark of their own, like the stonemasons used to leave a bit of something (whether graffiti or something more elaborate like their likeness in a corbell)...

Hi guys,

 Sorry but one DOES NOT need a CNC to manufacture a blank. One can perfectly well make all the plates etc, buy having a few lathes properly calibrated for milling, drilling, etc. Don's work is the most direct proof of this !
  I was under the impression that Dufour's movements start as a rod of German silver that's cut into wafers, which are each then turned and milled to be the base plate, then the bridges are done accordingly (all in-house). These are all finished in house, and then AFTER he has the movement running and beating good, He sends all the plates to be rhodium bathed. Then assembled again, timed and cased, and timed again...

Dufour sources his cases, dials and hands, strap, buckle,  (of course jewels as well) but all the pinions, plates etc are done in house. His relationship with the JLC cal movement was that it inspired the 'design' of his own movement. JUST like Louis Audemars 19th century sonnerie double barrel movemnts had a big influence on his design of his sonnerie pocket watches he sold to AP.

Please don't compare the Ferrier watches (which yes are very nice!) but 100 miles apart from the skill, thought, work and passion of a Dufour. Read up on both of the history behind these two men and you'll see just what I mean. And I am not saying one is better than the other, just apples and peaches!

Have a good weekend,
S

Sorry, "movement blank" manufacturer is probably too wide or insufficiently nuanced a phrase to use. From what I understand, it is not anywhere near the same scenario as, say, a brand having base movements manufactured by a third party ebauche manufacturer. This scenario it seems is where Dufour has designed a movement and has asked a third party contractor to do some part of the work (and if it involves the cutting of plates and bridges etc, then this is short of "making a movement blank" surely) and other third party contractors to do other parts of the work and yet still other parts of the work are done by employees and other parts done by the man himself. But none of that diminishes anything in my view. Whether the person doing the work for you is an employee ("in house") or an external contractor (not "in house"), it's still under a contract under which someone else performs services for you - so why do we draw the distinction?

I wrote in another thread that presumably the focus on "in house" is because it's a signpost to quality control, exclusivity, purity, originality or some other values or some combination of them. It would be just as right (and perhaps better) to focus on those values than the means by which one can achieve them (since the ends may be achieved by other means, and the means don't always achieve those ends).

...I've been in Ph. Dufour's workshop only one time and spoken tohim only on two occasions briefly - so you might know a lot more ?

But to my knowledge his plates and bridges are custom ordered and supplied by a  (certainly first rate) specialist.  This is also true for the wheels and
pinnions - first rate finished work, but not done  inhouse.  Other steel parts for example (like his wonderfull click spring) are wire spark  erroded (that is a CNC operated device as well) , but the majority of work is the hand finishing of course done in his atelier.
Screws for example are also bought in - I could imagine some of the keyless works parts are even nos parts form "somewhere".
All above of course only my personal view/knowledge.....so might be not completely correct, or perhaps would need updating. So take it with a grain of salt.

Personally I often think that an overly romantic view, or let's say lifting someone to high on a throne does more harm than good.
The actual "product"is impressive enough and doesn't need that, IMO.

IMO, it wouild be totally correct to state that P.Dufour is one of the very few,  who is well able ot do any single part alone and in his atelier  though - that's already quite impressive.

Best regards
Suitbert

He would be making 2 Simplicities a year at that rate. Dufour doesn't hide the fact that he has the components cut and milled by a specialist but cutting components isn't a big deal, its the hand work that has value.

Guys, Thanks for correcting my information- I appreciate it, and sorry for sounding like an ass in my first post- i just reread it and I apologize for sounding so preachy.

Could there have been a change in production methods between the first 100 and second 100 pieces? My only references about him getting all of this done in-house (i.e. cutting the plates, etc) was from an onwer that I haven't spoken to in about 3 years who had a rather early number and this is what he knew told me. And from watching the video done on him a long while ago where it discusses his making the first few of these simplicity watches. There you see him cutting the gears, pinions, plates, etc.
So I might have been a publicity stunt or more probably simply that once he was getting so many orders and then decided to open up 100 more pieces that he changed his production methods??

I agree that it's the finishing - design that's key to his watch. His work has a distinct appeal for me simply because it has such a strong relationship with the past...

Thanks again!
S

he still wasn't  cutting when visited him last in summer of 2010!

then I was completely mistaken- thank you for this info! HAGW, S

JLC 450 

www.servimg.com " target="_blank" > " border="0" alt="Image hébergée par servimg.com" />

simplicity

www.servimg.com " target="_blank" > " border="0" alt="Image hébergée par servimg.com" />